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Yorkshire Rugby Forum

General Rugby => Other Senior Rugby => Topic started by: Rugby01 on September 13, 2019, 04:21:56 PM

Title: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Rugby01 on September 13, 2019, 04:21:56 PM
Another RFU review into the structure of the game.

(Note the bold formatting is mine)


Adult male competition structure review

Important work to ensure that we preserve the future health of the game will be undertaken through a competition structure review by the Adult Male Competition Structure Group (the Group) commencing the month.

The Group is a task group of the Community Game Board and its membership will include representatives from the game, RFU staff, other national rugby union and other sports governing bodies.

The Group’s purpose is to review the adult male competition structure of the English Club Championship from Level 3 downwards and recommend an optimal playing offer and structure that protects the future health of the game for adult men by meeting the needs of current and future players, balancing quality of experience and player welfare needs with less travel, while at the same time protecting the financial and other sustainability of clubs.

The Group’s work will include gathering evidence from desk research, Electronic Match Card, the National Rugby Survey, alongside assessing historical and current knowledge from within the Group. The review will importantly include listening to players, administrators and practitioners involved in delivering the game, to enable recommendations to be made to Council on the future competition landscape. A report will be presented for discussion at Council in February with the intention of reaching a resolution at Council in April. This will enable recommendations to be implemented in time for the start of the 2020 season.

The Group first met on Wednesday 11 September. Further updates will be made available during the 2019-20 season.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: avinastella on September 13, 2019, 04:26:04 PM
They are like the opposition MPs.
Won't give up until they get their way.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: davie on September 13, 2019, 06:02:38 PM
Perhaps they are going to do it every year so they can travel the country on expenses
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: backrowbandit on September 14, 2019, 07:14:30 AM
This does seem a bit like Groundhog Day....
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Dan Nulty on September 14, 2019, 03:20:38 PM
Perhaps they are going to do it every year so they can travel the country on expenses

No, in this day and age, the impact on climate change, focus on saving momeybat the rfu given lack of money now for community game, it will all be down by Skype...
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Harry Hotspur on November 11, 2019, 05:59:55 PM
Looks like there is another meeting on 14th November

Adult Male Competition Structure Group
Why is this work happening?
? There has been over 30 years of league rugby in the adult male game in England, with arguably relatively few major changes in recent times, and this is set against the context of a greatly changing socio-economic landscape and new standards of player welfare considerations.
? Whilst the game generally continues to buck the downward participation trend seen in some other team sports, there is an accepted view from all available evidence that it is the female and age grade sectors of the Game that are supporting this. In the adult male game whilst the playing pool continues to grow, players are playing less often, and have different wants and needs than 30 years ago, which with relatively little change in the way competitive rugby is delivered, means more players are required to fulfil a 1st XV league season, which is having a corresponding negative effect on Lower XVs.
? This has been evidenced more clearly in recent times through data from Electronic Matchcards which shows on average 43 players to fulfill a 1st XV league season and some correlation with those clubs that use more players, having declining lower XV teams or increased walkover rates of Lower XVs.
? Alongside this there is a prevailing trend of less teams in the English Clubs Championship with teams dropping out into merit leagues, but also the merit leagues seeing some decline in teams in some regions.
? All of this is supported by insight from sources such as the National Rugby Survey (NRS), as well as anecdotally through club engagement, which highlights that players value ‘flexibility’ and ‘variety’ in their rugby offer as key in allowing them to maintain/increase their frequency of engagement with rugby.
? Whilst it is recognised that different levels of the community game and regions have different challenges and opportunities, the general question as to whether the competitive structure we have is the best one to ensure the future health of the Game had been raising its head in Club and CB forums throughout the last 12 months, and through competitions management issues coming to the surface in various areas of the country.
? With the ongoing work the RFU are undertaking in ‘Project Union’ to, amongst other things, strengthen and unite rugby union in England under the guiding principles of ‘players first’, ‘open to all’ and ‘financially strong’, and set against the context above, The Adult Male Competition Structure Group was created as a task group of the Community Game Board.
What is the purpose/scope?
? The Group’s purpose is to review the adult male competition structure of the English Club Championship from Level 3 downwards and recommend an optimal playing offer and structure that protects the future health of the Game for adult men by meeting the needs of current and future players, balancing quality of experience and player welfare needs with less travel whist at the same time protecting the (financial and other) sustainability of clubs.
? The Group will consider a number of areas and in particular the Group shall review and make recommendations to the CGB on: the principles and rationale behind how league rugby will be organised, the optimal number of matches including any cup and friendlies, the extent to which promotion and relegation is applied and the principles of playoffs, the optimal structure for management of competitions, the extent to which CB boundaries should be used to define leagues; what, if any, restrictions there should be on lower XV teams participating in leagues and the provision of national cup competitions. Finally the group will debate whether any recommendations should be put in place for the 2020/21 or 2021/22 season noting that CGB had already endorsed implementation for 2020/21.
? The group is Chaired by RFU Board member, and also a Council Member, and contains other Council Members including the Chairs of the two major Competitions Committees, members from other Unions / Sports, and RFU Staff.
What is the timeline?
July-Oct 2019: Nov / Dec 2019: Dec 2019:
Jan 2020:
Feb 2020:
March 2020: April 2020:
June 2020: Summer 2020: September 2020:
Information gathering
Wider consultation with the Game via listening group(s) and RFU Council Final update to CGB
CGB decision on recommendations
Discussion at Council
Review work and further information gathering
Council decision
Regulation changes put to Council for approval
Communication with the Game
New structures in place
What is the progress and what next?
? The Group has met twice, and considered insights and data from electronic matchcards, national rugby survey, case studies from the Game, and knowledge / feedback from those who sit on the Group.
? Outline principles have been agreed as; ensuring Competitions are delivering for players fist, a great player experience (convenience, accessible, fun), with less maybe more at certain levels, whilst ensuring appropriate level of competition and financially viability for clubs.
? The next stage of the process is to move to creation of various Competitions ‘models’ based on player insight. These will be agreed by the Group and then presented to CGB at end of October, along with a methodology for how and where these will be socialized, tested, researched with the Game.
? At its meeting on 24th October, CGB were updated on the Groups purpose, terms of ref., membership and headlines on insights, discussions, and direction of travel to date. Included Group member’s views and other feedback given since the last meeting, for example from SRU, NCA and DOCs (via Hertfordshire Clubs Meeting).
? CGB were asked to endorse the principles of the work done, namely creating a future structure that is delivering for players first and a great player experience (taking into account travel, welfare, changing socio-economic factors and the desired amount of matches players want to play at different levels, set against the impact of current structures). CGB were also asked to also feedback on what will be socialised with the Game, how it will be socialised, and the timing of implementation. CGB largely endorsed the principles of the Groups work, and the method / content for socialising with the Game.
? The plan is that this will happen via 8 listening panels covering players and other roles (separately) across regions over the next 4-6 weeks. The Competitions team in Rugby Growth are working through the details on this now and can share more in due course. It is planned that we will provide 3 options for season structure and league structures at these meetings (ranging from an evolution to something that more fully answers the insights and principles discussed), and then a facilitated discussion would be held allowing feedback to be captured and any new models / ideas proposed. The options would not include the status quo. There would also be one listening panel with RFU staff, to provide a comparison. CGB continued to endorse the timing of implementation in September 2020, though it was noted this was particularly tight and there may be areas that should be prioritised over others, in a final recommendation, depending on further feedback. The feedback from these listening panels will support a final recommendation from the Group to CGB and a CGB decision in January.
? The next meeting of the Group is 14th November and there will be an update for discussion at RFU Council is on 29th November. For further information, questions or feedback please contact:
? Competitions-Development@RFU.com
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: avinastella on November 11, 2019, 11:13:36 PM
Have the LibDums taken up office at the RFU?

Keep asking the same questions until we give the answers they want.
Much of the 'evidence' they put forward last year was shown to be either flawed, made up or not relevant.
What has changed in the last 12 months?

More importantly, what Survey?
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Fredsbar on November 12, 2019, 09:12:50 AM
Are you saying that the current structure of League rugby suites today’s environment?
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: avinastella on November 12, 2019, 10:34:05 AM
Are you saying that the current structure of League rugby suites today’s environment?
My views on the subject are hardly a secret.

But lets look at it another way. Last years panel turned up with a clear agenda that they failed to justify (can only comment on Yorkshire meetings).
So it seems they are trying the same process again, especially if some of their statements above are correct.

So what has changed in the 3-5 months from their decision last season ??
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Rob13 on November 12, 2019, 11:17:42 AM
what I find most interesting is they recognise the only reason playing numbers appear healthy is because of the women's game and junior game. Been coming for years the current issues that are only getting worse.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Oldandslow on November 12, 2019, 12:58:52 PM
Two points from the RFU statements.

1 Status quo not an option.

2. The new proposals will be based on the player and player experience.

I take those two points to mean they will not allow the views of clubs to keep 14 team leagues because they need the revenue to block the changes.

Smaller leagues are going to happen they are already the norm in the South East, some counties now only have 10 team leagues.

This time I expect to ram the changes thru.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: backrowbandit on November 13, 2019, 06:25:52 AM
Localisation I completely agree with.

I've said a number of times that playing local sides with all the competition that generates, as well as reduced travelling is more important than promotion & relegation.

I honestly can't see how reducing the number of teams at say level 7 and above will help the game. This year there are 34 Saturdays between the beginning of September and the end of April (that's what I consider the season should be). With 26 league matches that leaves 8 Saturdays free which averages as 1 a month off. At Scarborough for the last two years the decision whether to enter the cup has been left entirely to the players to decide. This year they said yes... That gives an indication of what they wanted to do on one of those 8 Saturdays.

Interest in the game will ebb away if there is not regular rugby.

So in summary LOCAL rugby is the answer NOT less rugby.

Scrap levels 3,4,5. In the north make the top level North Premier and integrate the clubs from 3,4 and 5 back into their regions. A separate question needs to answered about whether level 2 is sustainable...which I doubt.

There can be cross region cups...and top of region play offs either for silverware or for possible promotion to the professional level if a team desires that.
So we would end up with 5 regional (or however many there are) pyramids and a single or possibly 2 professional leagues on top.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: davie on November 13, 2019, 10:12:02 AM
Good points BRB .
Another point though - there isn't a game without players but this rush to reduce the number of games played is bad news for club treasurers. Dinno have one home game in November , one in December and one in January. Three home games in three months is no good for attracting spectators or cash flow.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: neverplayedstandoff on November 13, 2019, 11:42:59 AM
Almost felt sorry for Dinno until I realised there are only 3 games in Nov and Jan and 2 in Dec.

Obviously all clubs have the same number of home games so currently 13, no flies on me, so some teams will have fewer home games in months with only 3 played, but overall see my previous comment.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: davie on November 13, 2019, 01:31:03 PM
Almost felt sorry for Dinno until I realised there are only 3 games in Nov and Jan and 2 in Dec.

Obviously all clubs have the same number of home games so currently 13, no flies on me, so some teams will have fewer home games in months with only 3 played, but overall see my previous comment.

Which identity did you use to post your previous comment? Dual personality?
Point is smaller leagues mean even fewer home games to generate revenue. And cash flow is important so you can meet your monthly bills which remain constant.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: neverplayedstandoff on November 13, 2019, 02:48:56 PM
Davie
Meant my previous comment in my post re 13 home games.
Don’t get me wrong I personally, being a retired treasurer of a Y1 club, am quite happy with the current league arrangements.
I agree with most of BRB,s points, it is not a reduction in games that is required it is a whole new approach below the championship level.
I would also state that a club that relies solely on income from bar receipts from rugby games is never going to thrive financially. In this day and age you have to generate income from external sources and having seen the work put in to Dinno,s clubhouse I am sure that is what they do. Also appreciate that some clubhouses do not lend themselves to private functions but having been to all but one in Y1 I do not see many if any in that category.
I will not go on ad nauseum about the state of rugby as it is not a simple solution and suffice to say it is definitely not a one size fits all that HQ would like.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: fish on November 13, 2019, 03:21:08 PM
BRB - has a valid point in local games. I appreciate we will struggle to return to a structure before the leagues and the game itself is far a more structured affair, But having played rugby before and after leagues  in the 80’s and 90’s (and a coach in the last 15years) I didn't find the rugby any less competitive prior to the leagues being introduced. OK I can hear some saying “you’re an old fart” but the local rugby that BRB talks about and the derbies  it entailed were far better than the current set up,  with rivalries that often outweighed anything you’d get in league rugby today let alone the revenue these often generated.  Yes, there were teams that aspired to something more and we played them in the Cup competition and often chalked up some notable victories. Maybe there is scope to return to the past as suggested for teams below a certain level but I may be on my own in thinking that,  but I do feel we are going full circle with teams that want leagues at higher level and teams that don’t, but the current situation cannot prevail.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: davie on November 14, 2019, 12:22:18 PM
After getting a bloody nose last year the RFU has resorted to a new tactic of setting up "listening panels" with one at West Leeds on November 27th. No doubt we will get feedback that everyone attending loved the ideas that we rejected last year. I suggest that the chosen few who attend should nominate their own minute taker and distribute widely.
"We are writing to you to offer an opportunity to help shape the future of the Adult Male game. We are putting together a series of ‘listening panels’ to discuss the structure of the Adult Male competitions at Level 3 and below. This will include areas such as length of season, number of games played and how best to utilise knockout or cup rugby. We are looking for contributions from a range of people involved in the game from players, to committee members and club administrators. Each panel will have around 20 people involved to keep to manageable numbers, and is an opportunity for you to put forward your ideas to England Rugby about the sport that you are involved.
Please be aware that filling in the form does not guarantee attendance at one of the listening panels and we will select at random to ensure a good spread of role / location / level.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: backrowbandit on November 14, 2019, 01:30:03 PM
I haven't seen a form so I won't be one of the panel...
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: davie on November 14, 2019, 01:49:21 PM
You’re obviously not important enough.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: backrowbandit on November 14, 2019, 02:13:25 PM
No I'm not!

just found it on the newsletter..

Well that's going to get a really good cross section NOT! No rural areas covered at all and a minimum 2 hour drive in winter for someone from our club.

This will NOT be a representative of the game at all and shouldn't be considered to be so.

25th November – Blaydon
25th November – Old Albanians
27th November – West Park Leeds
27th November – Tunbridge Wells
2nd December – Peterborough
2nd December – Bridgewater & Albion
4th December – Silhillians
4th December - Havant
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Ribbflagman on November 14, 2019, 06:06:49 PM
Well said BRB only two meetings from Birmingham up to the scotch border. Probably covers more than 50% of the country. Maybe its a deliberate tactic to not get many Northern clubs to attend and therefore be able to blame the clubs for not bothering to attend and then doing just as they like anyway. Very poor show IMO.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: avinastella on November 14, 2019, 06:39:08 PM
Ah, the RFU Newsletter.
The latest wheeze of the RFU is to announce matters of importance into a newsletter few read and even less know about.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: avinastella on January 15, 2020, 02:53:23 PM
Sent on behalf of Chair of Community Game Board Rob Briers
 
Dear All
 
Thank you to everyone who has contributed to the Adult Male Competition Structure Group (AMCSG) to date, your input is greatly valued.
 
We wished to provide Council with a brief update following the AMCSG presentation of some initial findings and recommendations at a Community Game Board meeting also attended by the CEO earlier this week (and ahead of the Community Game Update to clubs next week).
 
The AMCSG has reviewed all the input received through various channels, and the initial findings and recommendations were discussed at length by the CGB.
 
CGB agreed the key principles presented by the Group and a process moving forward.  This includes a range of models for the structure of leagues to address appropriate travel time/distance, player welfare, player experience / quality of competition and club sustainability factors. These models all therefore variously “flatten” the pyramid and reduce some league sizes.
 
Next steps in this work will be to socialise the proposed structures across the game in two phases in early 2020:
 
Phase One – late January/February – will be to communicate the findings and undertake a digital survey with players and clubs on some of the models and proposals (the aim will be to give Council sight of this before it goes to the Game)
 
The AMCSG will report feedback and proposed models to the RFU Council at the end February.
 
Phase Two - (March to early April) - will consist of a number of face to face meetings with clubs and other stakeholders to explore in more detail the feedback and the initial proposals.
 
A final presentation of, and decision on, the league structures which are to be implemented in the 2021/22 season, will be made at April Council meeting.
 
As a result of initial feedback received, where possible some adjustments to address issues such as player welfare and flexibility, e.g. with rest breaks, will aim to be introduced from start of season 2020/21, which will now be a transition season ahead of full implementation in 2021/22 season. Full guidance will be communicated to all clubs before the end of the 2019/20 season.  Significant additional work is still required on promotion/relegation, cup rugby, Lower XVs in leagues etc., and options on these will be progressed in parallel with the socialisation periods, along with discussions on the future management of competitions.
 
Council members are encouraged to utilise the above information to communicate progress with stakeholders, where required.
 
Please feel free to contact Competitions-Development@RFU.com directly if there are any initial questions or CGB colleagues.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Dan Nulty on January 15, 2020, 09:32:50 PM
At least they are giving a season notice this time.

Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: avinastella on January 16, 2020, 04:17:54 PM
At least they are giving a season notice this time.
Says they are implementing some changes for start of next season.
That'll be the 12 team leagues they are desperate to introduce
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Dan Nulty on January 16, 2020, 07:31:30 PM
I know a lot of clubs are resistent to it but I do think it will be better for the players.

However, I really cannot see them implementing 12 teams league for next season based on what is written. I would expect there to be some sort of change to the cup competitions to ensure more free weekends.  Then move to 12 teams for 2021.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: backrowbandit on January 17, 2020, 08:43:12 PM
I know a lot of clubs are resistent to it but I do think it will be better for the players.

I think 12 is too many...I would suggest 4 team leagues and playing the matches should be optional.

I think it's disgusting that people who have chosen their hobby as rugby should be allowed the option to play rugby on more than 6 Saturdays a year.

In fact wouldn't it make more sense to ban rugby from being played on any year ending in an odd number. So we can really look forward to the few games played every other year... imagine the anticipation.

If 4 games are so critically dangerous to players Dan, why not just scrap all cup matches?

Or better still just limit the number of matches that any player can play?? Then see how the players feel about being told they can't play in some games.

What a sad world that is developing...
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Rugby01 on January 17, 2020, 08:57:42 PM
Or better still just limit the number of matches that any player can play??

If it is about player welfare and 26 matches is deemed too many, then that would seem the logical way forward.

How many players play every match?

At my club, only 4 players have played in all 15 matches.

If it is about reducing league matches in the name of player welfare, why are there proposals to play Cup matches on the newly available Saturdays?

In my experience, if a player wants a day off to go to his friend's wedding or go on a weekend break, then he takes it.

My preference, and most of the players and members at my club is to continue with 14 team leagues.

Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Ribbflagman on January 18, 2020, 10:59:57 AM
Totally agree 01. Let’s get away from namby pamby tinkering from the RFU and let the people who play the game decide how many games they want to play. If they don’t want to play because of other commitments then it will be as it always has been.
THEY WONT PLAY AND GO XMAS SHOPPING INSTEAD/ GO ON A STAG DO/GO ON HOLIDAY ETC.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: oneoftheoldfarts on January 18, 2020, 01:53:22 PM
Most clubs need to be playing every Saturday to support their continued efforts to provide the facilities etc. Playing less games is a nonsense, as stated on previous comments, the players decide for themselves if they are available or not.
Yorkshire need to dedicate a weekend for the cup competition first rounds, late September, and not change it for an early postponement, that way half the entrants will be out of the way fairly early on and any postponements can be played at thre end of the season if they will affect promotion/relegation if the clubs want to play.
Back in the 70’s and 80’s games were played every Saturday from 1st September through to 30th April, some even played on Wednesday’s and may have also played football on Sundays so why do we in the modern era need to play less games for player welfare. Lots of us are old and grumpy, and we might have several aches and pains, but we made good friends across the game and enjoyed our times together.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Dan Nulty on January 19, 2020, 10:35:56 AM
I know a lot of clubs are resistent to it but I do think it will be better for the players.

I think 12 is too many...I would suggest 4 team leagues and playing the matches should be optional.

I think it's disgusting that people who have chosen their hobby as rugby should be allowed the option to play rugby on more than 6 Saturdays a year.

In fact wouldn't it make more sense to ban rugby from being played on any year ending in an odd number. So we can really look forward to the few games played every other year... imagine the anticipation.

If 4 games are so critically dangerous to players Dan, why not just scrap all cup matches?

Or better still just limit the number of matches that any player can play?? Then see how the players feel about being told they can't play in some games.

What a sad world that is developing...

I've said nowhere in my comments about reducing matches due to the danger of the game so the sarcasm in your response was not required.

When I first started playing senior rugby in early 2000s wasn't it 12 team leagues then? Perhaps my memory is failing.

There is absolutely nothing stopping clubs arranging friendly fixtures if they have enough players wanting to play on free weekends.

Have no issue with stopping the cups, they need serious rethink given the number of clubs pulling out.

It would potentially be better to pull league fixtures out of the hat in Sept to constitute the first round draw and games played as a double header.

Problem is, attitudes are changing to life/sport/relationships/free time/work. Rugby has to move with it. I can rattle off many good players from Old Grovians who have picked up a minor injury in the last 10 years and decided they don't want to play as they don't want to risk losing their job. And when I say minor I mean a black eye, a muscle strain, cut inside mouth to name a few.

I always found rugby injuries a great talking point with customers to break the ice and have a laugh about but each to their own.

Every club is different. From our point of view we make at least 5 changes every single week to the squad because so many of our lads work shifts, socialise, have holidays. A lot of them are late twenties so we are into stag dos and weddings and invariably, they are all away! Some weeks we can be changing 10 players. You can't criticise them, it is amateur rugby, the pressure it puts on the coaches who are also amateur to ring round and fill the team is excessive. We do it because we love it but in my view, the current structure is not sustainable.

Appreciate clubs who have been around for 50 plus years and have a host of facilities won't care about what is going on at newer, lesser clubs who play at a lower level.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Ribbflagman on January 19, 2020, 11:30:22 AM
Dan
       i understand what you are saying ,but, surely if what you say about your team and the number of changes made weekly is factual (I have no reason to think otherwise) what difference would four more non competitive weekends make.
In my opinion Grovians are to be admired for doing what you have in the last 8 or so years, however clubs like Ribb (who I think are the same as most clubs)  totally rely on home games and the revenue they generate to keep going. If Grovians were to further progress and get club facilities i am sure your thinking would be more in line with clubs such as ours.
This in no way meant as a slight at your position/facilities as (previously stated you have my admiration) but I think your thinking may change as your financial costs will inevitably increase as you progress.
Best wishes and I look forward to seeing you at our "Palace" later in the season.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Shed on January 19, 2020, 12:54:51 PM
We want to keep 14 team leagues but if losing 2 home games a season is going to seriously affect the clubs income you need to rethink your whole business strategy.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Dan Nulty on January 19, 2020, 01:56:31 PM
Hi Flaggy, watch this space at Grovians, we haven't the finances for a plush new clubhouse but are hoping we to put something in place to at least sort the changing room situation in the next 18 months with a lot of hard work and a bit of luck.

The reason I think more free weekends is better is that hopefully the players will be more able to organise themselves socially rather than having so many games in a row. For the clubs who put out 2/3/4 teams, they could clearly arrange home fixtures if they have the players availability in terms of friendlies, perhaps against local rivals as well to ensure a decent crowd. It isn't as if clubs like ours bring a coach load of supporters anyway so unfortunately our fixture won't be seen as a cash cow for anyone!

I am getting the feeling that sadly a lot of people in society now you can no longer have discussion without using sarcasm, ridicule or even abuse to attempt to 'win' a debate.  We have lost the ability to see things from a different perspective.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: backrowbandit on January 19, 2020, 08:33:24 PM
On this subject some of us have been worn down to the point of sarcasm by the RFU (aka Nicola Sturgeon) constantly coming back with the same proposal in a different coloured package.

As for friendlies... You yourself have pointed out how the game has changed and one of those changes is the near complete irrelevance of friendlies now. With a few exceptions more friendlies become cancellations than are actually played. The changes in society you previously referred to, also mean that the idea of playing a seemingly meaningless match no longer holds the interest of most players or spectators.

I have yet to be convinced of the problem that the RFU are trying to solve.

If player welfare is the overriding consideration then further measures to de-power the game will be far more effective in preventing injuries and promoting long-term sustainability of our sport.

Rugby Union was traditionally a game of evasion not contact... Therein lies the future (i.e. the past!!)

Changes to rucking and clearing out are an absolute must.... Likewise changes to age grade rugby and the obsession of grouping children who are travelling through adolescence simply by age rather than size and weight.

So I completely disagree with reducing leagues from 14 to 12. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and there is a total lack of any evidence to support it.

However I do agree with trying to make leagues as local as possible.... especially at lower team levels.

I would support Yorkshire taking over some of the league structure.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Dan Nulty on January 19, 2020, 10:14:20 PM
Understand your points and I can almost be swayed. I think the side you fall on is largely due to your own experiences with the club or clubs you have been involved in.


I mention friendlies because I continually hear about how great it was in the 60s 70s 80s when three teams would all be on the same coach to play another club. But I agree, there will be plenty of players not making themselves available for that, particularly those that won't be receiving recompense for the effort.

Whatever happens, we just need to try and make the best of it and not spend hours fighting against it. Whatever happens, there will be clubs not happy with it, we just have to trust they ahbe the best interest of the majority at the heart of whatever they decide.

Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Fredsbar on January 30, 2020, 05:42:54 PM
Has anyone completed the Adult Male Future Competitions Survey which was sent out this afternoon?
Detailed introduction and stats.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: avinastella on January 30, 2020, 06:04:24 PM
Has anyone completed the Adult Male Future Competitions Survey which was sent out this afternoon?
Detailed introduction and stats.
As anyone received it?
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Dan Nulty on January 30, 2020, 06:33:29 PM
Nothing in my inbox. Perhaps it has only gone to those few mystery people who managed to get a place at the review meeting.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Fredsbar on January 30, 2020, 06:51:13 PM
I didn’t go but I’ll send the review to your email address.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Dan Nulty on January 30, 2020, 07:17:45 PM
Thanks Peter, received.

Have to say, I don't feel I can complete it. Every option suggests 10 team leagues for level 7 and below with a caveat that the structures can be decided locally. It doesn't seem right therefore that clubs from 8-10 are voting on structures for 3-6 (assuming every one at 7 has ambitions to play at 6 or above). I don't feel can vote for something that doesn't have an impact on me, whilst also suggesting I am voting for a 10 team league that I am not sure anybody wants? Will ask the players and see what they say.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Fredsbar on January 30, 2020, 09:09:54 PM
I agree.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: backrowbandit on January 31, 2020, 11:17:53 AM
Fill the questionnaire in and just put ZERO for each option...

Its like they have recruited Robert Mugabes Head of Questionnaires to lead this process.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Harry Hotspur on January 31, 2020, 05:33:54 PM
Has anyone completed the Adult Male Future Competitions Survey which was sent out this afternoon?
Detailed introduction and stats.

https://t.co/k9s4SSKbro?amp=1

I don't think you have to be invited to complete the survey. The RFU seem hell bent on reducing the leagues to 12 as there are no options for 14.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Dan Nulty on January 31, 2020, 07:21:20 PM
Has anyone completed the Adult Male Future Competitions Survey which was sent out this afternoon?
Detailed introduction and stats.

https://t.co/k9s4SSKbro?amp=1

I don't think you have to be invited to complete the survey. The RFU seem hell bent on reducing the leagues to 12 as there are no options for 14.

To 10 according to the survey.

I put zero in response to every option as well

Pretty much the worst survey they could have sent out.

As someone who has been supportive of reducing the number of games, I can't support anything that survey suggests.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Speccy on February 01, 2020, 08:44:26 AM
Could it just be negotiation?

We have 14,they want 12,so propose 10 and settle on 12?

How come there are still 16 clubs in the Nat leagues?
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: backrowbandit on February 01, 2020, 11:26:04 AM
We could do with having the committee tasked with evaluating this named...we need to know exactly who it is who thinks they have a higher level of knowledge.
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: avinastella on February 01, 2020, 11:45:13 AM
All the zero's from me too.

Their arguments are the stuff of nonsense. It's like they never listened to any of the previous fact finding meetings.

This seems a classic case of
"when we want your opinion, we'll give it to you".
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: Dan Nulty on February 01, 2020, 05:50:18 PM
We could do with having the committee tasked with evaluating this named...we need to know exactly who it is who thinks they have a higher level of knowledge.

Haven't I seen a list somewhere? I'm sure there was one. I will have a look
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: WestoftheHill on February 07, 2020, 05:57:54 PM
You mean this one?

Group Membership
Stephen Pearson - Council Member
Terry Burwell - Chair of the Adult Competition Management Sub-committee
Jim Chapman - Chair of the Adult Competition Development Sub-committee
Norman Robertson – NCA representative
Paul Astbury - Divisional Organising Committee representative
Maureen Jackson - Council Member
David Mahoney – England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB)
Vicky Cox – Scottish Rugby Union
Steve Grainger - RFU Rugby Development Director
Ben Lowe - RFU Head of Rugby Growth
Paul O’Leary - RFU National Competitions Manager - Development
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: backrowbandit on February 07, 2020, 08:19:24 PM
What's the NCA?
Cricket?
Scottish RFU?

It seems Mr 12 teams Chapman is in the thick of it again...
Title: Re: Adult male competition structure review
Post by: davie on February 08, 2020, 10:23:49 AM
That can’t be the right committee? How many of them have experience of running a rugby club at levels 5,6 and 7, for instance.