Author Topic: Yorkshire cup comps. (Read 2261 times)

Ribbflagman · **on:** May 21, 2024, 06:38:59 PM

No doubt that all the clubs who played at Doncaster last weekend had a good day out, and well done to all who participated. It is with interest that over four competitions only 32 teams actually took to the field. Not so long ago there was three comps, Cup,Shield, Silver Trophy that each had 32 teams in each competition. The Cup was for the top 28 in the county plus the shield semi finalists.
This year a total of 9 Teams actually played in the cup, 8 in the shield,8 in the Silver Trophy and 9 in the Vase.

It may be me alone, but surely the powers that be simply cannot ignore any longer the fact that the majority of clubs do not want to play in county cup comps. Clubs have voted with their feet, so its not just me.!!!
The sooner we get back to 14 team leagues that helps in the sustainability of all clubs the better.
I cant deny that some clubs who played on Saturday will strongly disagree, but the number of overall participants says it all.
Comments Please.

Differ Lid · **Reply #1 on:** May 23, 2024, 09:35:18 AM

Ultimately it’s down to players commitment levels, which has changed dramatically over the past 10-15 years.

I don’t remember many players missing games in season other than for injury, but now most players at a club will be missing a game or 2 at least each season for other reasons.

I enjoy the cups, recent success does tend to give a rose tint to competitions. However I don’t see how a 14 team league is going to improve commitment levels, it will only improve a clubs income stream.

The answers to improving player numbers aren’t in a clubs bar revenue. Obviously that helps to make the club sustainable, but isn’t going to make more players available for the extra league games.

Actually reducing travel time, playing more localised games, that’s what will help.

For example an Extended East Yorkshire League -

Beverley
Bridlington
Driffield
Goole
Hullensians
Malton
Pocklington
Scarborough
Selby
York

Followed by a county cup competition.
If local leagues had a second tier competition that allowed second teams to enter along side other clubs

For example

Driffield 2s
Hessle
Hornsea
Hull Ionians 2s
Nestle Rowntree
Selby 2s
York RI
York 2s
(Plus a couple of extras)

With a county shield competition at the end of a league season.

Maintaining a merit league for additional home games.

Not saying it’s the perfect answer, but just my thoughts of how travel would be reduced. Allowing players to get home in time to watch Saturday night TV with the family.

Extending the league season is only going to increase travel and be less desirable to players.

avinastella · **Reply #2 on:** May 23, 2024, 11:28:33 AM

Quote from: Differ Lid on May 23, 2024, 09:35:18 AM

Ultimately it’s down to players commitment levels, which has changed dramatically over the past 10-15 years.

I don’t remember many players missing games in season other than for injury, but now most players at a club will be missing a game or 2 at least each season for other reasons.

I enjoy the cups, recent success does tend to give a rose tint to competitions. However I don’t see how a 14 team league is going to improve commitment levels, it will only improve a clubs income stream.

The answers to improving player numbers aren’t in a clubs bar revenue. Obviously that helps to make the club sustainable, but isn’t going to make more players available for the extra league games.

Actually reducing travel time, playing more localised games, that’s what will help.

For example an Extended East Yorkshire League -

Beverley
Bridlington
Driffield
Goole
Hullensians
Malton
Pocklington
Scarborough
Selby
York

Followed by a county cup competition.
If local leagues had a second tier competition that allowed second teams to enter along side other clubs

For example

Driffield 2s
Hessle
Hornsea
Hull Ionians 2s
Nestle Rowntree
Selby 2s
York RI
York 2s
(Plus a couple of extras)

With a county shield competition at the end of a league season.

Maintaining a merit league for additional home games.

Not saying it’s the perfect answer, but just my thoughts of how travel would be reduced. Allowing players to get home in time to watch Saturday night TV with the family.

Extending the league season is only going to increase travel and be less desirable to players.

So who are you going to play the cup games against?
There's a travel issue, right there. Remember, these Cup games are what few clubs want.

Differ Lid · **Reply #3 on:** May 23, 2024, 01:24:49 PM

Cups against teams across the county in similar format to the current set up.
There would obviously be travel involved, but asking players to travel further for a couple of cup fixtures against teams your not playing on a weekly basis wouldn’t be a massive ask.

It would also add a little bit to the cups because then a West Yorkshire Yorkshire side meeting East Yorkshire sides in the cup wouldn’t be a repeat of 2 league fixtures already played

avinastella · **Reply #4 on:** May 23, 2024, 02:32:29 PM

Quote from: Differ Lid on May 23, 2024, 01:24:49 PM

Cups against teams across the county in similar format to the current set up.
There would obviously be travel involved, but asking players to travel further for a couple of cup fixtures against teams your not playing on a weekly basis wouldn’t be a massive ask.

It would also add a little bit to the cups because then a West Yorkshire Yorkshire side meeting East Yorkshire sides in the cup wouldn’t be a repeat of 2 league fixtures already played

So what you've come up with is a plan not dissimilar to the current offering the RFU forced through.
But what conveniently works for East Yorkshire doesn't work quite so well for the other areas.
And what happens at the end of season one?
Moving up a level next season, our travel will go from 352 miles to 390. Not exactly something to worry about.

As for the Cups, you seem determined to ignore the problems - like 18 walkovers this season, and that's after the clubs paid a £100 deposit to enter.

Differ Lid · **Reply #5 on:** May 23, 2024, 03:38:19 PM

Quote from: avinastella on May 23, 2024, 02:32:29 PM

Quote from: Differ Lid on May 23, 2024, 01:24:49 PM
Cups against teams across the county in similar format to the current set up.
There would obviously be travel involved, but asking players to travel further for a couple of cup fixtures against teams your not playing on a weekly basis wouldn’t be a massive ask.

It would also add a little bit to the cups because then a West Yorkshire Yorkshire side meeting East Yorkshire sides in the cup wouldn’t be a repeat of 2 league fixtures already played
So what you've come up with is a plan not dissimilar to the current offering the RFU forced through.
But what conveniently works for East Yorkshire doesn't work quite so well for the other areas.
And what happens at the end of season one?
Moving up a level next season, our travel will go from 352 miles to 390. Not exactly something to worry about.

As for the Cups, you seem determined to ignore the problems - like 18 walkovers this season, and that's after the clubs paid a £100 deposit to enter.

As I said it was just my thoughts. Clearly from recent experiences in cups and local clubs in the area it works for me.

Basically what you have managed to highlight is their is no easy answer that works for everyone.

If someone can explain how a 14 team league helps playing numbers or commitment levels then I’m happy to listen to it?
But as the same clubs that are desperate for additional home games are also against second XVs entering the league, I can’t see how league sizes increase and travel reduces.

So for me getting the cups right is the answer to the extra fixtures clubs are desperate for.

avinastella · **Reply #6 on:** May 23, 2024, 05:35:18 PM

Quote from: Differ Lid on May 23, 2024, 03:38:19 PM

As I said it was just my thoughts. Clearly from recent experiences in cups and local clubs in the area it works for me.

Basically what you have managed to highlight is their is no easy answer that works for everyone.

If someone can explain how a 14 team league helps playing numbers or commitment levels then I’m happy to listen to it?
But as the same clubs that are desperate for additional home games are also against second XVs entering the league, I can’t see how league sizes increase and travel reduces.

So for me getting the cups right is the answer to the extra fixtures clubs are desperate for.

Yes, we get it. You like the Cups, but you still avoid the issue that many other clubs don't. Walkovers this year aren't a one off. 14 last year, 19 the season before. And these don't include the clubs that decline to participate.
We got to the Final last year without playing a game.
This season we had no game between the end of the league season and 4th May. And the RFU say they were only interested in player welfare. My a**e!
For many clubs once the league is finished, players are off, ironically to League!

Ribbflagman · **Reply #7 on:** May 23, 2024, 07:33:05 PM

Differ Lad, you make your point well but I never said, or have ever said that 14 team leagues would increase player participation, merely that they would help clubs sustainability. What does improve player participation is more league games that the vast majority are committed to playing, rather than having the promise from the blazers of at least one home game (maybe two, if you are lucky) that rarely materialises due to clubs not wanting to play what the majority see as meaningless away cup games. Your club are on the up at the moment and have had lots of success in the last few years but that cant be said for the majority of clubs, of whom, as I stated in my opening post, only 32 actually took to the field when at the turn of the century 96 clubs all participated with absolutely a minimum of W/Os.
More league games that make clubs more sustainable and will get player commitment to fullfill simply must be the answer. A more sustainable club could then make their offering more attractive to players (not money) by providing better coaching, bus trips etc to make the whole experience more enjoyable.
Only my opinion but something I feel strongly about. As for second teams entering the league system, dont get me started as it would be the death knell for many local clubs struggling to put sides out at the moment. That is not the way forward if the RFU want to keep current clubs going as they purport. OR DO THEY?

??

Differ Lid · **Reply #8 on:** May 24, 2024, 08:01:48 AM

I do completely understand clubs needs and wants for additional league fixtures.
And do see the failings of the cups. The number of walkovers are poor, and do cast a shadow over the tournaments.

Ultimately agree something needs to change, if that’s additional league games or the cup, something has to change.

But what I think is obvious is the changes need to be in the benefit of the clubs, which will help drive playing numbers and participation. Half arsed plans aren’t helping anyone and increase the pressures on club finances and playing numbers. Same goal in mind, different view of how to achieve it

Dalesman · **Reply #9 on:** June 06, 2024, 08:00:53 AM

Want to know whether it is better to have a cup comp or extra league games? ASK the players of your teams what they want. I know from experience club committee's and supporters want larger leagues to increase revenue, but what do the players want?

Many valid points above and no answers. Start by asking the players (all of them).

Differ Lid · **Reply #10 on:** June 11, 2024, 09:52:17 AM

Quote from: Dalesman on June 06, 2024, 08:00:53 AM

Want to know whether it is better to have a cup comp or extra league games? ASK the players of your teams what they want. I know from experience club committee's and supporters want larger leagues to increase revenue, but what do the players want?

Many valid points above and no answers. Start by asking the players (all of them).

Shorter seasons and less games seems to be the overall feeling from players I speak to.
But that’s not going to please people, so numbers will continue to decline, and walkovers in cups will continue to happen.
Players don’t want to commit to 40+ weeks of the year for training and games anymore. Not without getting paid for it.

Beachy · **Reply #11 on:** June 11, 2024, 04:43:46 PM

Interesting thread and one I think everyone probably has a view on! In my opinion you're never going to have full participation in cups again, barring a miracle influx of players, not like the 'old' days anyway. Most leagues these days can't have a full season without a walkover never mind in the cups. Unfortunately rugby union in this country has been driven straight towards a cliff edge by the brilliant minds at the RFU for too long, we're now seeing the effects.

- The younger generation have far more opportunities and options to do other things on a weekend rather than sports, which evidently they do.
- Rugby also has to compete with all the other big sports along with the endless extra activities people do on weekends now.
- Younger generation have much less money compared to previous generations and in turn aren't willing to/or can't afford to sacrifice losing their jobs/being off sick with an injury, not to mention committing to that for a full season.
- RFU most importantly with their heads in the sand thinking every thing will be fine.
- How many premiership clubs have gone bust in the past 5 years? If they can't run the top league which they spend most of their attention and money on, how on earth can they develop the lower leagues? Spoiler; they can't.
- The one that I really think has affected Union though is the game itself and how it's changed from a free flowing spectacle to a stop start snooze fest from the lowest division games to professional games on TV. You may as well be going to watch a referee performing with a side order of rugby due to the purely ridiculous amount of laws, interpretations and rules that are put on to the ref to enforce (DO NOT ENVY THEM). I watched a game of union the other day where the ball hardly moved from the same spot for 20 minutes, when all is said and done the game just isn't as entertaining anymore for a lot of prospective viewers/fans. Why would anyone who is just passing or potentially interested want to watch a game that stops and starts every 2 minutes?!

Long and short of it, enjoy whatever rugby you can while it's available and what will be will be, there's no sign of society changing any time soon and certainly no sign of the RFU getting any better at their jobs.

avinastella · **Reply #12 on:** June 11, 2024, 05:53:26 PM

Quote from: Differ Lid on June 11, 2024, 09:52:17 AM

Quote from: Dalesman on June 06, 2024, 08:00:53 AM
Want to know whether it is better to have a cup comp or extra league games? ASK the players of your teams what they want. I know from experience club committee's and supporters want larger leagues to increase revenue, but what do the players want?

Many valid points above and no answers. Start by asking the players (all of them).

Shorter seasons and less games seems to be the overall feeling from players I speak to.
But that’s not going to please people, so numbers will continue to decline, and walkovers in cups will continue to happen.
Players don’t want to commit to 40+ weeks of the year for training and games anymore. Not without getting paid for it.

That might be the case round your way, but along the M62 corridor many players go play rugby League when there's no Union games on.

Differ Lid · **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2024, 06:06:19 AM

And lads go and play Cricket, Tennis, Golf. They don’t go into hibernation on the Wolds when rugby union stops.

davie · **Reply #14 on:** June 12, 2024, 08:48:53 AM

Is there going to be an end of season national competition at the end of the season (Papa John or similar ) ?

Yorkshire cup comps.

Author Topic: Yorkshire cup comps. (Read 2261 times)

Ribbflagman

Yorkshire cup comps.

Differ Lid

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.

avinastella

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.

Differ Lid

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.

avinastella

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.

Differ Lid

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.

avinastella

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.

Ribbflagman

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.

Differ Lid

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.

Dalesman

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.

Differ Lid

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.

Beachy

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.

avinastella

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.

Differ Lid

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.

davie

Re: Yorkshire cup comps.