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Standard of level 6 (+ 5 and 7) compared to years gone by.

This is a discussion for the topic Standard of level 6 (+ 5 and 7) compared to years gone by. on the board Regional Two (North & North East).

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Speccy

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Reply #30 on: November 01, 2024, 09:08:26 AM
What I find equally interesting, is what has happened below 1st XV's.

Looking at the Merit Tables for clubs at level 5 / 7 , its shocking how few run true 3rd or even 2nd XV's. Incidentally, claiming you run a third team but only on weekends when your second team doesnt play, doesnt count - Huddersfield, Brods.

Equally, claiming a game played and a 'win' , when the opposition concedes on a friday night, after a game of chicken, to see who concedes first, doesnt really count. For the beginning of Nov, there have been desperately few games truely played, below first teams.



Dark Arts Advocate

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Reply #31 on: November 01, 2024, 04:08:04 PM
I’ve already posted on the forum that I am not alone at York, being very concerned at the lack of players and subsequently teams below 1st team level.
I would rather see the energy put into debating as to whether a player or players get paid redirected to ideas to keep this great game alive at club level.
It is only a matter of time when a 2’s is not getting regular rugby that players drift away to other sports or pastimes. This will almost certainly result in clubs folding all together.
I have also posted previously ,I don’t give a monkeys chuff if a club pays players. Just so long as they are open and honest about it. The problem being is that those who grew up in the brown envelope and boot money era and are still administrators in the clubs, won’t change their spots. They still think that is the best way to run a club, even though it now puts the whole of the club in jeopardy.
If you have been engaging in basically corrupt practice for 20 years and have being getting away with it, you won’t change until you are caught red handed. The problem being that could be fatal for a supposed charitable organisation
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gateprop

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Reply #32 on: November 01, 2024, 05:16:28 PM
What I find equally interesting, is what has happened below 1st XV's.

Looking at the Merit Tables for clubs at level 5 / 7 , its shocking how few run true 3rd or even 2nd XV's. Incidentally, claiming you run a third team but only on weekends when your second team doesnt play, doesnt count - Huddersfield, Brods.

Equally, claiming a game played and a 'win' , when the opposition concedes on a friday night, after a game of chicken, to see who concedes first, doesnt really count. For the beginning of Nov, there have been desperately few games truely played, below first teams.

Cleckheaton, Keighley, Ilkley, Moortown, Yarnbury, Selby, Driffield, Pocklington, Hullensians, Scunthorpe, Malton & Norton, Scarborough, Hull Ionians, Goole. They are the teams I can see that have put out a 3rd team semi-regularly this season, though not all of them regularly. My question is, what are the clubs east of York doing right that other clubs aren't? 9 of those 13 are east of York, is it just a geographical thing as the clubs are spread out more? Tell us your secrets!

It's been a difficult one to judge at Pythons. We've had some weeks with 14-16 available for the 2's and some where we have 24-26. If we could get another 8-10 players committing on a regular basis we'd be looking at putting out a 3rd team ourselves. We've also been lucky so far as well that, when our opposition have pulled out as has happened on 3 occasions so far this season, we've been able to get replacement fixtures.


Rob13

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Reply #33 on: November 01, 2024, 06:14:47 PM
Im involved with running Ilkley 3's and I do consider us a true 3's, I think there are two issues that stand out for me there's a problem with some clubs where they are far too focussed on their 1XV and have lost sight of the bigger picture. Harrogate are a great example along with Otley. Harrogate 2's are travelling to us tomorrow but I don't believe it's a coincidence that their 1's aren't playing. As for Otley...

Player attitudes are an issue too and it takes a lot of work to get some to engage and play regularly to help get a side out but so far this season we've got the buy in.

For what its worth I miss our trips to York to play the 3XV always a good crack, given the uni's they should be getting into them.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2024, 08:36:28 PM by Rob13 »


gateprop

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Reply #34 on: November 01, 2024, 09:33:00 PM
Im involved with running Ilkley 3's and I do consider us a true 3's, I think there are two issues that stand out for me there's a problem with some clubs where they are far too focussed on their 1XV and have lost sight of the bigger picture. Harrogate are a great example along with Otley. Harrogate 2's are travelling to us tomorrow but I don't believe it's a coincidence that their 1's aren't playing. As for Otley...

Player attitudes are an issue too and it takes a lot of work to get some to engage and play regularly to help get a side out but so far this season we've got the buy in.

For what its worth I miss our trips to York to play the 3XV always a good crack, given the uni's they should be getting into them.

I'm led to believe Harrogate 2's have played 3 games this season and all 3 they've named a squad of 15 and turned up with less than that. You should be able to tell by names on the teamsheet whether they've dropped 1st team players in. York is an odd one. Our 2's played at York RI a couple of weeks ago and it was the first time York RI had a side out in 4 years I believe. Their 1's were playing a local derby against Nestle Rowntree which was very well attended and Rowntree's 2nd XV is going well. What was interesting though is that they said the main reason they are now able to put out a 2's side out is they've had an influx of university players. If you've got Rowntrees and York RI going well that's going to create an alternative to playing at York 2's, 3's or even 4's in the past. Add to that within 30 minutes of York you've got Pocklington, Harrogate, Wetherby, Driffield, Malton, Selby, there is going to be competition for any half decent uni students.



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Reply #35 on: November 01, 2024, 10:22:58 PM
Where do you think these additional players are coming from to play 2's rugby?

There is a lack of players choosing to play rugby nowadays at all levels, so what happens is that if they don't get picked for the 1's they can either move clubs in the same league or drop down a league and play first team. There are less and less one club players anymore and that percentage lowers the higher up the leagues you go.

What would you rather do?
Play Merit team rugby or play first team rugby in Regional NE 1, 2, Yorkshire1? Never mind the £ incentive at some clubs.



BishBashBosh

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Reply #36 on: November 01, 2024, 10:26:36 PM
To answer BRB, the level is lower and I think it's down to the fact that there is less players now playing rugby.




BishBashBosh

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Reply #37 on: November 01, 2024, 10:35:05 PM
Im involved with running Ilkley 3's and I do consider us a true 3's, I think there are two issues that stand out for me there's a problem with some clubs where they are far too focussed on their 1XV and have lost sight of the bigger picture. Harrogate are a great example along with Otley. Harrogate 2's are travelling to us tomorrow but I don't believe it's a coincidence that their 1's aren't playing. As for Otley...

Player attitudes are an issue too and it takes a lot of work to get some to engage and play regularly to help get a side out but so far this season we've got the buy in.

For what its worth I miss our trips to York to play the 3XV always a good crack, given the uni's they should be getting into them.

No N2N team is dropping starting 1st teamers into a 2xv on an off weekend just to get a win - sounds like you're getting your excuses in early
You might get a fringe player or a bench player that needs a bit of game time, but that is the same for every club

PS It's pretty funny thinking Gate will drop some 1st team players in, when Ilkley have their first team captain starting for the twos, last weeks 1xv starting tighthead and back replacement also starting for the twos.....


Ribbflagman

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Reply #38 on: November 01, 2024, 11:55:47 PM
Oh Dear,
            god forbid a decent club giving some game time to any players who just want to play a game of rugby on a Saturday. Whats wrong you you people who constantly moan about lack of players, then openly criticise those clubs for whom they play for when they turn out for the second XV. You should be glad that such people are still in our game whoever they play for. Get a life.


Yorkie Boy

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Reply #39 on: November 01, 2024, 11:56:45 PM
I was only having this discussion the other day about the retirement of York's 3rd team and struggling to put 3 teams (1st, 2nds and Cavs) out week in week out. I then looked at the clubs nearby us Wetherby, York RI, Rowntrees and Thirsk who have all taken players from York's lower teams to bolster their 1st teams. I cannot answer why these players are leaving York to play lower down the league system or even the lowest level of league rugby.

Is it the kudos of playing first team rugby? Being a big fish in a small pond?

They could stay at York and push themselves and try and play at the best standard they can but unfortunately they seem to leave and join other clubs.


backrowbandit

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Reply #40 on: November 02, 2024, 07:01:15 AM
The choice has always existed between playing on a 2nd or 3rd team at a higher-level club or moving to a 1st team at a lower level club. However, it’s clear that this trend is now effecting both clubs more significantly than in the past, due to a decline in player numbers.

We’re likely seeing either a decrease in total players or the same number of players who are less committed to playing matches week in, week out home and away.

With the vast array of leisure activities available today compared to 25 years ago, it’s unlikely that player numbers will return to previous levels. The appeal of physical contact sports as a leisure activity is more limited than ever - it's a very different world 😒

Maintaining current participation level should be our first priority. The RFU has made some reasonably positive changes, particularly the lower tackle height, which has definitely made the game safer, especially for junior players. Parents appreciate a safer environment (they basically don't like their kids being hit on the head) which can help attract/retain more young players to/in the sport.

While the GMS system may be mismash clusterF*** of a system, it should in time provide valuable data to identify key areas for concern - such as the transition from junior to senior rugby, the drop-off of players at university, and early retirements. Over time, GMS should help us understand these trends better and implement realistic and targeted strategies to address them.

One thing that is absolutely the case, there is no point any club having 3 or 4 teams if all their competitors only have 1 team....... The right solutions to this problem is in everyones interests.
Loving all rugby but especially at grassroots level.


Rob

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Reply #41 on: November 02, 2024, 07:15:18 AM
For 13 years, I’ve been involved with Yorkshire Rugby, and I feel the standard has slipped a level. Fewer people will always create a slip. The same issue exists across traditional sports like cricket and football local to us. There isn’t a local Scarborough league in football despite the eight divisions on Saturdays and Sundays when I was 16. Similarly, the cricket league has disbanded and is now incorporated within the YPYN.

Record numbers of people are golfing, cycling, involved in combat sports, and competing in triathlons. Society is changing, and traditional sports are fighting to stay relevant. The RFU has finally seen that the decline of schools rugby is affecting overall participation.

Clubs local to us are bucking the trend, and they’re all doing things differently. I can only speak for us. At Malt, we have no pull from the university or colleges (we’re trying to sort that this season).

We’re 100% self-sustaining, relying only on walk-ins or Colts graduates. In three first-team games this season, all but one player was a junior at Malt. We also have an unofficial “no poaching” rule across the age grades and senior levels. We don’t see the value in taking players from other clubs. I accept that our location probably influences this; other teams may have different needs.

We’ve gone through tough times, and I’m sure we’ll face them again. But currently, we have a good group of volunteer team managers and around 13–14 clubmen with 100+ appearances, who see the value of sticking around. In my opinion, four or five of them wouldn’t be out of place running a professional team in the future—they’ve just got to back themselves.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2024, 07:18:01 AM by Rob »


Speccy

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Reply #42 on: November 02, 2024, 08:32:37 AM
What I find equally interesting, is what has happened below 1st XV's.

Looking at the Merit Tables for clubs at level 5 / 7 , its shocking how few run true 3rd or even 2nd XV's. Incidentally, claiming you run a third team but only on weekends when your second team doesnt play, doesnt count - Huddersfield, Brods.

Equally, claiming a game played and a 'win' , when the opposition concedes on a friday night, after a game of chicken, to see who concedes first, doesnt really count. For the beginning of Nov, there have been desperately few games truely played, below first teams.

Cleckheaton, Keighley, Ilkley, Moortown, Yarnbury, Selby, Driffield, Pocklington, Hullensians, Scunthorpe, Malton & Norton, Scarborough, Hull Ionians, Goole. They are the teams I can see that have put out a 3rd team semi-regularly this season, though not all of them regularly. My question is, what are the clubs east of York doing right that other clubs aren't? 9 of those 13 are east of York, is it just a geographical thing as the clubs are spread out more? Tell us your secrets!

It's been a difficult one to judge at Pythons. We've had some weeks with 14-16 available for the 2's and some where we have 24-26. If we could get another 8-10 players committing on a regular basis we'd be looking at putting out a 3rd team ourselves. We've also been lucky so far as well that, when our opposition have pulled out as has happened on 3 occasions so far this season, we've been able to get replacement fixtures.

Gateprop,

Without being too pedantic, you sometimes have to look behind the figures to see the true position.

The tables may show a side has 'played' 6 games, yet their for and against is something like 30 points to 10 points. i,e. they have only truely played 1 or 2 games. Equally, some clubs have indeed played 5/6 games at third team, its just that their 2nd team have only played 1 or 2 ! Certain clubs would rather concede a hard to win 2nd team fixture, then comfortably win a 'third' team fixture, against weaker opposition.

Only a handful of clubs regularly field 3 sides on the same saturday. Be careful of playing certain clubs third teams, on weekends when their second team doesnt have a fixture !



backrowbandit

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Reply #43 on: November 02, 2024, 08:40:31 AM
For 13 years, I’ve been involved with Yorkshire Rugby, and I feel the standard has slipped a level. Fewer people will always create a slip. The same issue exists across traditional sports like cricket and football local to us. There isn’t a local Scarborough league in football despite the eight divisions on Saturdays and Sundays when I was 16. Similarly, the cricket league has disbanded and is now incorporated within the YPYN.

Record numbers of people are golfing, cycling, involved in combat sports, and competing in triathlons. Society is changing, and traditional sports are fighting to stay relevant. The RFU has finally seen that the decline of schools rugby is affecting overall participation.

Clubs local to us are bucking the trend, and they’re all doing things differently. I can only speak for us. At Malt, we have no pull from the university or colleges (we’re trying to sort that this season).

We’re 100% self-sustaining, relying only on walk-ins or Colts graduates. In three first-team games this season, all but one player was a junior at Malt. We also have an unofficial “no poaching” rule across the age grades and senior levels. We don’t see the value in taking players from other clubs. I accept that our location probably influences this; other teams may have different needs.

We’ve gone through tough times, and I’m sure we’ll face them again. But currently, we have a good group of volunteer team managers and around 13–14 clubmen with 100+ appearances, who see the value of sticking around. In my opinion, four or five of them wouldn’t be out of place running a professional team in the future—they’ve just got to back themselves.

Not long ago there TWO cricket leagues in Scarborough with 4 divisions in each (Beckett and Derwent Leagues). Although the former does still exist, it's just fallen under the umbrella of the YPYN. However I agree with your point....
Loving all rugby but especially at grassroots level.


Rob13

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Reply #44 on: November 02, 2024, 08:51:54 AM
Im involved with running Ilkley 3's and I do consider us a true 3's, I think there are two issues that stand out for me there's a problem with some clubs where they are far too focussed on their 1XV and have lost sight of the bigger picture. Harrogate are a great example along with Otley. Harrogate 2's are travelling to us tomorrow but I don't believe it's a coincidence that their 1's aren't playing. As for Otley...

Player attitudes are an issue too and it takes a lot of work to get some to engage and play regularly to help get a side out but so far this season we've got the buy in.

For what its worth I miss our trips to York to play the 3XV always a good crack, given the uni's they should be getting into them.

I'm led to believe Harrogate 2's have played 3 games this season and all 3 they've named a squad of 15 and turned up with less than that. You should be able to tell by names on the teamsheet whether they've dropped 1st team players in. York is an odd one. Our 2's played at York RI a couple of weeks ago and it was the first time York RI had a side out in 4 years I believe. Their 1's were playing a local derby against Nestle Rowntree which was very well attended and Rowntree's 2nd XV is going well. What was interesting though is that they said the main reason they are now able to put out a 2's side out is they've had an influx of university players. If you've got Rowntrees and York RI going well that's going to create an alternative to playing at York 2's, 3's or even 4's in the past. Add to that within 30 minutes of York you've got Pocklington, Harrogate, Wetherby, Driffield, Malton, Selby, there is going to be competition for any half decent uni students.


Im interested to hear how they've engaged the Uni contingent, Leo's advert for Uni players is impressive...free beer, free stash, free transport, no subs and potential post grad employment.