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Should the YRFU be thinking about a league system in the junior set up?

This is a discussion for the topic Should the YRFU be thinking about a league system in the junior set up? on the board Mini & Junior Rugby.

Author Topic: Should the YRFU be thinking about a league system in the junior set up?  (Read 6422 times)

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Pomfresian

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Interesting that Skippyscrum noted the recent debate about the possibility of leagues at the u13 and above levels. This of course has been raised before but swept under the carpet (again) with no clear reasoning in my unbiased opinion.

My own personal opinion is yes, they should but with strict guidelines based upon the players illegibility.

They must ensure no super club building takes place; like the junior RL try to avoid but dont. Players should sign up at the start of the season and should not be able to sign on with anyone else for that same season. A squad maximum of 22 should be enforced. Poor old WPL will then need to send all the players back they have recruited to their community based clubs. A slight dig yes but an honest appraisal, what is the point of having thirty odd players in a particular age group and your nearest neighbor not having enough to field a side?

I reckon it would mean that the `big clubs` break away into a ten team division but that will ensure a competitive match is had week after week which will certainly make the players much better for it, the representatives squads would also benefit enormously as well. The teams below this elite group should be structured into leagues with one team gaining promotion and one team coming down. This will mean that all levels and abilities are catered for

Now the down side:

At Castleford we have a policy of `if you train you play` would that be endangered should a league system be in place? sure it would! the better players would find a club with better players and the not so goods would probably pack in anyway and that isn't what we want in RU. The Southern Hemisphere junior development structure is based on a `only the strongest survive` but that is with the elite group of players, all the other kids play week in week out in a equally matched league situation.

There are so many advantages in forming a competitive league structure and the main beneficiary would be the community clubs at adult level. Would it mean particularly in Castlefords case, that players are lost to RL at U14 level due to the lure of RL scholarships? perhaps in some cases but if it doesn't / didn't work out ( most often the case) then they can come back to the game they love. Play and train for something that is meaningful.

What are other peoples views on this?


SkippyScrum

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Totally agree Pom !!

After reading the consultation paper, the implementation of a division / league basis within the Junior YRFU makes more sense and has more pro's than con's.

Assuming 10 teams of equal ish  ability in a division would mean 18 games per season leaving 12 Sunday's for training, Erdpp, District etc without encroaching in to mid week when the schools want to train etc, therefore helping to reduce the overplaying situation which the rfu wish to avoid.

Divisions would also help to reduce the need to arrange compulsory friendlies when it is known that there will be a 80 - 0 score line which does neither team any good.

Those clubs who can field 2 squads could have a Div 1 team & a div 3 team, which would mean a bit of a admin headache for whoever runs the leagues, I.E. players must be nominated to play for one or the other and must transfer between teams which is logged at HQ, and names checked on team sheet submissions , just like Rugby League.

All in all, divisions make sense within the YRFU, it would give the lads something to focus on , help with team moral and bonding and create an element of equal footing within the club player development so that our guys go on to play at senior level.

There are problems within the current structure of Rugby league divisions which can partly be put down to the number of clubs within the M62 corridor heartland and parents/players chasing better teams to go to, but within Union, I don't believe that problem would exist.


Radio Gnome

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My only experience of leagues at junior level was at U17 where I helped run my son's team.

We were in Division 3 of 5 or 6 with only 6 or 7 teams in each. The games were very competitive and very enjoyable to watch. The small number of teams was ok to as we also had the Yorks Cup/plate/bowl games plus the National KO competition to go at too.

One of the downsides of leagues across all junior age groups is the shortage of referees. Teams will have to accept someone's Dad/coach/grandad doing it, which I suppose is what happens now? Will teams be less forgiving when there is a bit more riding on the result?

I know a few referees who flatly refuse to referee junior matches due to the rubbish that comes from the other side of the boundary rope!
Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em
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avinastella

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I know a few referees who flatly refuse to referee junior matches due to the rubbish that comes from the other side of the boundary rope!
At the risk of appearing naive, could that not be dealt with via the disciplinary/code of conduct procedures that apply to senior level?
"Bother!" said Pooh, as he found his smack had talc in it.


Radio Gnome

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I know a few referees who flatly refuse to referee junior matches due to the rubbish that comes from the other side of the boundary rope!
At the risk of appearing naive, could that not be dealt with via the disciplinary/code of conduct procedures that apply to senior level?

Indeed, but generally junior games are a referees' second game of the weekend and like I said some just say why bother?

Which ever way you slice it there are not enough Society Referees to support a junior league structure in Yorkshire so if they are going to be implemented it'll have to be supported by the clubs themselves in terms of referees.
Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em
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marky mark

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for me not on your nelly, junior rugby should be all about developing skills and game understanding, far far too many coaches want win at all costs, regardless of improving individuals just so they can say we got the better of you and isn't our trophy nice, junior rugby should always be totally player focused, sorry if i've upset anyone, leave the leagues to the seniors
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fish

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No way what so ever should leagues be introduced for junior rugby, we are trying to encourage not discourage participation in this fine sport. It’s about developing them as players and encouraging them to play, yes organise fixture accordingly to develop all the members of the squad but not leagues.

All players develop at different ages so Johnny being good at 10 might not be the same at 15. All you’ll end up with is the strongest players picked every week and that’s it, along with little Johnny, Billy and Mickey because there Dads are coaches. Sorry if I upset anyone but this is an idea put forward by someone who has no idea about player development
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Radio Gnome

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for me not on your nelly, junior rugby should be all about developing skills and game understanding, far far too many coaches want win at all costs, regardless of improving individuals just so they can say we got the better of you and isn't our trophy nice, junior rugby should always be totally player focused, sorry if i've upset anyone, leave the leagues to the seniors

In some respects I agree with marky mark. Some of the worst behaviour I have seen from coaches towards their charges was at the Gullivers Tournament at Nottingham where the prize for success was a trip to Twickenham to play on the hallowed turf before the England v Barbarians game. I've seen kids being yelled at and it's not nice to see. Perhaps that's more a reflection of the coaches concerned than Leagues themselves? If fringe squad players don't play regularly now how many games will they get in a league set up? Outside Yorkshire there are leagues at junior levels and they seem to work and as mentioned before Australians can't grasp the concept of playing friendlies.
Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em
That I got no cerebellum -  Ramones 1977


Pomfresian

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No way what so ever should leagues be introduced for junior rugby, we are trying to encourage not discourage participation in this fine sport. It’s about developing them as players and encouraging them to play, yes organise fixture accordingly to develop all the members of the squad but not leagues.

All players develop at different ages so Johnny being good at 10 might not be the same at 15. All you’ll end up with is the strongest players picked every week and that’s it, along with little Johnny, Billy and Mickey because there Dads are coaches. Sorry if I upset anyone but this is an idea put forward by someone who has no idea about player development

You dont upset me Fish at all.

Having no idea or caring about players development is two different things in my eyes!

If you want your players at your club to reach the pinnacle of their abilities? How do you foresee that and how would you go about it?

In Castlefords case, we sometimes get a superstar, when we get them they often leave; in and around the U13`s!

Not because they fall out with the club, their ability belies that around them. Our club is full of players who have gone but always come back once their ambitions have been met or indeed exceeded. They reluctantly go with our blessing because we see it, due to Castleford RUFC they have gone on and done bigger and better things.

We all want what you want Fish but the reality is that talent needs a stage. personally I wouldn't hold or encourage any player not to exceed elsewhere if I knew the opportunity arose at a different club which would improve his / her rugby.

Do we not want talent to exceed? The strongest players need to be playing against each other week in week out. Going to WPL or Sheffield and getting beat 84-0 does not encourage little Jonny or Mickey to come back training nor play the following week and I can say that with experience.

Like it or loath it, competition brings out the best in people

 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 06:30:18 PM by Pomfresian »


Radio Gnome

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Like it or loath it, competition brings out the best in people


Unless those people are called Lance Armstrong, Ben Johnson or Dean Richards ;)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 08:28:24 PM by Radio Gnome »
Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em
That I got no cerebellum -  Ramones 1977


westpark leg end.

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Don't agree with leagues below under 17's personally.
Pom, been awhile since you had a dig at us, was feeling like you'd forgotten about us.
Ask yourself why do juniors leave other clubs to come to our club?
Majority, in my opinion, is due to them wanting better coaching and facilities.
Not even slightly sorry if that upsets you as it's becoming tiresome the weekly complaining about how we're somehow destroying junior rugby in our area.


Pomfresian

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My point being westpark leg end is that we should  have something that competes with you!

You have got the model that people aspire to, you have the coaches at junior level that would be the envy of most senior clubs, you have the facilities that most professional outfits only compare to, you attract junior players because of it....

Do you not want the same for all clubs so that you have something to compete against??

Whether its been a while or a weekly dig as you contradict in your post, I dont give two hoots about the upset, what we should all aspire for is your `set up & facilities ` at all of our clubs so that all of our clubs produce better rugby players...should it not?

There is sort of a back handed compliment in there somewhere even if you choose to find it tiresome! 

I asked what everyone thought to junior leagues thats all, I dont have the answers and by way of debate there may be just a way so that WPL finds competitive fixtures week in week out!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 07:00:44 AM by Pomfresian »


SkippyScrum

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Lets not get in to a debate about the strengths or weakness's of certain clubs but concentrate on whether we feel leagues or divisions are good or bad.

As mentioned in another thread, if there are 9 teams in a division, that would mean 16 competitive sunday's, leaving approx. 14 - 15 sunday's in a Union season for friendlies, player training, ERDPP's , district events & player development without having to go in to mid week when a number of rugby playing schools make demands on our lads. Therefore reducing the dreaded over playing !!

With divisions, it could consist of teams which are all of a similar playing standard and from my observations with Rugby League this year, a bottom of the division team can give the top team a run for their money.  Surely that is better than a friendly where the score line is 80 - 0 !!


Family Guy

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i,m with Marky Mark. best intentions in the world with leagues i understand the concept of leagues. but my past and present involvement with junior rugby does tell me that some coaches are more bothered about winning, than coaching to develope players for progresion into senior rugby. i,ve seen many a junior side unbeatable at U13,U14,U15 and lancashire as colts (where's their developement been), a couple of years ago watched Doncaster colts play Wath who they had stuffed for the last several years lose twice in their final season as juniors to the wath side. who had been developed?
Also in some areas coaches at times have devastated some of the smaller clubs as their talent has been "coached " away by coaches who need to win (who are not always the best coaches, their club may have the wow factor though). I,ve seen some great junior coaches at minor clubs who given the "talent" some of the more attractive clubs get would produce much better long term out comes.i know this is not the senior clubs fault but it shows that juniors and parents are not always able to judge the ability of the coach aswell as the facilities of the club.

This has resulted in some sides folding and the loss of players who may not want to be superstars, but would make wonderful club men, i,ve also seen lads who at U15 were average  suddenly develope and blind some of the star players when they start senior level.

(The present system of talent identification may not be perfect but with th CB rugby program, District and county set up some of the young talent already gets to much rugby. look at the latest changes to the Leeds junior developement squad and junior academy were the individual players log time spent training at school club etc training and are now limited as its shown that injury to their developing bodies is all to easy if pushed to compete to often whilst young. Again lets develope and encourage rather than pressurise.)
 
If we could only maintain their involvement when young and not make them feel second class in a B team etc, we may later produce a superstar or at least  a "club man" and we all know how important club men are because in most junior level  clubs it's them that keep the club going not the superstars.
before the senior leagues came in sides and coaches knew their level based on past performance and other sides results, and in general tried to arrange games at that level. why do we need leagues can,t the coaches work it out. leagues i feel would only benefit the few  (who feel a trophy is more important than seeing a lad develope on and off the field) at the detriment of others.

Sorry about the rant, but from my own experiences i know that a talented person can also be put off by the constant demands some coaches and systems put on them in the desire to win. once lost to this great game of ours not many return lets give them something to enjoy and help them develope to their maximum potential, as coaches do it for them and not for ourselves.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 02:30:43 PM by Family Guy »


Pomfresian

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Great post Family Guy and your views are from the heart and very well put.

It is such a fine line isn't it and to be honest I can be swayed either way from time to time!

Other countries have competitive sports from such a young age hence the reason why they are usually so successful. The lack of years at competitive rugby is why so many Australian`s and New Zealander`s make their nest here. Also why union are slowly taking rugby league players into the professional game. At 13-14 kids are so impressionable that a league competition would teach them how to win and how to be successful. If its always friendly rugby it can become almost acceptable to constantly lose.

If we are to progress as a sport  (particularly locally where RL has the primary catchment area) we must surely create a professional environment where talent is spotted and nurtured through into representative level  or excellent club men.

To give you an idea of where I am coming from FG, my lad was talent spotted by a Super League team playing rugby union. He has more ability in his little finger than I ever had in my own failed playing career. We have gone through the CB stuff where you throw a medicine ball and do some bunny hops and from that somehow transpires into whether you can play rugby or not, he has played for the district and for Yorkshire. No one then slings an arm around you and encourages you to do better. The coaches despite four training sessions and two representative games couldn't even remember his name. They did manage to remember the names of the ones who didn't train though and were selected in front of those what did!! :-X

Leeds Carnegie should have the best players on the planet. In tandem with Leeds Rhinos they could and should set up a rugby school of excellence. Rugby players then get coached to a very high level and each player then has a persuasion between RU & RL. Based on ability not a double barrel name or whether dear Papa puts some money into having a guest coach do a session at the grammar school

I seem to have gone on a bit here ::) I feel better anyway having got that lot off my chest. Apologies!