Is the start of this statement accurate? Can anyone confirm?
Also asking if a club wishes join something that doesn't exist, is very different to asking if they want it to exist.
It seems some are intent on an outcome from the outset?
• Lower XV's – A majority of clubs expressed a wish to consider entering a Lower XV into the League Pyramid. It is essential that we gather accurate information of which Clubs and how many Clubs wish to join the Pyramid. Beyond the current Promotion & Regulation rules no further changes will apply to existing Pyramid Clubs. In future it is proposed that a simple 2 up & 2 down system will operate across all leagues within the Pyramid and the lower leagues. Lower XV Clubs entering the Pyramid will enter at a level deemed appropriate and with the knowledge of this information circulated in advance. Any lower League XV side entering the Pyramid will do so at least 2 leagues below their higher placed team (e.g. 1st XV). This would produce the inevitability of some 14 team Leagues so these 2 initiatives do go hand in hand. Proposal – Can each Club provide a simple "yes/no" answer about whether you wish your Lower League sides to enter the Pyramid
Cant reply to a simple yes/no on various accounts. Given the travel implications for some very long away trips for any club operating in the Yorkshire leagues. Depending on the geography of clubs if we democratically vote for such a dramatic change within our county, should we not have a collective meeting to discuss how it could be initially managed to minimise each clubs travel costs etc. I know this is a regular "Bitch" from me but there are plenty of "Outliers" who would welcome having their second XVs (Driff and Ionians for example, no offence meant) in the system but may not have considered the true cost implications. Being transferred to the North West this season has crippled us financially. Although we look like being champions again. Nobody can tell me if we can come back "East" when we could drastically reduce our travel costs which would, maybe, help us make a decision in our direction collectively as a community club. It is a dilemma for many with, imho, no correct answer.
Just as an aside I still am of the opinion that to let stronger clubs second XVs into the league system will be the death Knell for many struggling clubs with players migrating to so called stronger clubs.
If that is what the stronger clubs want then it must be on their conscience if I am proved correct in due course. I Sincerely hope not. As by then it will be too late for the aforementioned clubs.
The desire for 14 team leagues feels like it has been the biggest request from clubs represented on here for a number of years. Not sure anyone can deny that.
That is going to require an additional 6 teams into Y1 - Y3. Take the 6 teams out of Y4, and Yorkshire 4 becomes none existent, leaving only 9 sides who will have increased travel as no longer feasible to have a North & South league. So by not allowing 2nd XVs into the leagues and increasing league sizes to 14 it will be the death knell for many struggling clubs with players stopping playing due to lack of competitive games.
Agree with it or not, you cant have one without the other. So either accept 12 team leagues or accept lower XVs into the pyramid.
Walkovers
Y4 North
10 Walkovers
Y4 South
8 Walkovers + how ever many Knottingley gave.
Some of these most certainly weren't due to travel distance, unless you consider 5 miles excessive.
And that's before the dreaded 2nd XVs are blamed for destroying the game in our region.
Quote from: Differ Lid on Mar 26, 2026, 12:45 PMThe desire for 14 team leagues feels like it has been the biggest request from clubs represented on here for a number of years. Not sure anyone can deny that.
That is going to require an additional 6 teams into Y1 - Y3. Take the 6 teams out of Y4, and Yorkshire 4 becomes none existent, leaving only 9 sides who will have increased travel as no longer feasible to have a North & South league. So by not allowing 2nd XVs into the leagues and increasing league sizes to 14 it will be the death knell for many struggling clubs with players stopping playing due to lack of competitive games.
Agree with it or not, you cant have one without the other. So either accept 12 team leagues or accept lower XVs into the pyramid.
I'm not sure there has ever been a desire for 14 team leagues below level 7.
7 and above then 100%
Im not commenting on whether 2nd teams I to leagues is acceptable or not. I'm simply saying it's a misleading question.
There should be two questions.
1) do you support 2nd teams into leagues.
and
2) if it happens would you enter a 2nd team (regardless of whether you support something or not)
What are the thoughts in Counties/Areas where 2nd teams are in the league system ?
Have Counties seen more clubs disappear since the introduction of 2nd teams ?
Differ
no need for innuendos directed at "you know who" but I must say the letter from Yorkshire is as clear as mud as to how the no doubt ramrodding of you "Big Lads" getting your way on lower XVs teams entering the Pyramid.
I have a few questions that I know cannot be answered before the voting deadline.
1) Why was the letter only sent to club secretaries (all volunteers and unpaid, except for the "Big Lads" clubs) on the 25th March with a response deadline of eight days later.
2) Presume that most clubs with Boards/Committees (again unpaid volunteers, that help to keep Grassroots clubs going) may not have a meeting planned prior to next Thursday lunchtime, let alone perhaps being able to get to have face to face chats with playing personnel/team managers etc.
3) Who are the "committee" that will deem the entry level of lower XVs, and what is there knowledge of clubs relative strengths, and maybe more importantly their weaknesses.
4) Once this happens as it appears to me that it will, who will take responsibility for the demise of smaller clubs, many of whom are struggling to put one side out every week. Despite the county Chairmans letter stating that some clubs from the regional meetings would help such clubs. Why can those clubs not be named so that their statements can be evaluated in years to come. I think we all know what reality will be. Its just a political statement to try and lessen the hammer blow that is about to be delivered to the aforementioned clubs.
5) What if any financial support will be given to outlying clubs for extended travel requirements. At Ribb this year our total travel was almost identical to Yorkshire 1 but when I asked the powers that be how this years travel support was worked out. I simply could not get an answer (will provide names who I asked confidentially if required). Last season we were in Counties 1 and moving to a regional league this season I didnt think it unreasonable to assume that the travel support level kicking in would be lower in a counties than at a regional level. However that is not the fact. We have been given (Isle of Man excluded) £359 travel support this year but were told that we didnt qualify last year in Counties 1 for any support despite being at level 7. The lack of transparency and candidness from RFU and lack of candidness from the people running YRFU is disappointing to say the least and despite the corporate claptrap that they purport will I believe end in tears for many long established clubs who are struggling at the moment.
6) There are still too many reasonable questions that clubs have simply not had the time to ask, let alone get answers to, before being forced into voting for something that their clubs may or may not agree with.
It really stinks to me, and I think the people ramrodding it through should be ashamed at the lack discussion. Why can more discussions not take place with a view to collating clubs views and then implementing for the 2027/28 season. I dont think thats unreasonable.
That said we all know that we are generally losing players for various reasons and to do nothing will not sort the base problem out.
I look forward to seeing their proposal to grow the game and offer more competitive rugby across the region, our 2nd XV has had a reasonably successful season in the merit league but have had some significant winning margins (no disrespect against other clubs in the merit league) and games won by 50+ points do little to develop anyone.
In addition, the number of walkovers since Xmas has increased as clubs inevitably start to struggle toward the end of the season with injuries etc.
Seems logical to let the clubs with more competitive 2nd XVs enter the league and those with more of a Dev 2nd / 3rd XV continue with the merit league to develop players outside of the more serious side of stuff.
Continuing as we are risks sleep walking into more problems because in Yorkshire 'we don't like change'' however, it would be short sighted not to recognise the risks regularly highlighted and some more assurance than 'The more senior teams promise to play nicely'.
Hear what you say Flaggy and the Doc speaks the voice of reason. IMHO as long as putting 2nd XVs into the leagues remains discretionary and maybe having some sort of sustainability assessment criteria before admission, it should remain up to individual clubs to do what's best for themselves.
At one of the Yorkshire Webinars, One National club stated they were strongly for having 2nd XVs in the League Structure. when it was pointed out they don't have a 2nd XV, their Chairman said, "So, we'll just go and get one".
And people still think the biggr clubs have the interests of the County game at heart?
Heath want this as they're currently flying high but last year they could hardly ever raise a second team.
If they'd enter that year loads of clubs would have been left without games and lots of lost revenue.
It's fine when you're flying like Ribb and Heath are now but as soon as your first team start to struggle the second team will not become a priority and will inevitably concede fixtures.
Quote from: cynic on Mar 27, 2026, 05:01 PMHeath want this as they're currently flying high but last year they could hardly ever raise a second team.
If they'd enter that year loads of clubs would have been left without games and lots of lost revenue.
It's fine when you're flying like Ribb and Heath are now but as soon as your first team start to struggle the second team will not become a priority and will inevitably concede fixtures.
How about if you enter a 2nd XV in the leagues, any points deductions they get for not fulfilling a fixture, the 1st XV get the same punishment?
Quote from: gateprop on Mar 27, 2026, 11:52 PMQuote from: cynic on Mar 27, 2026, 05:01 PMHeath want this as they're currently flying high but last year they could hardly ever raise a second team.
If they'd enter that year loads of clubs would have been left without games and lots of lost revenue.
It's fine when you're flying like Ribb and Heath are now but as soon as your first team start to struggle the second team will not become a priority and will inevitably concede fixtures.
How about if you enter a 2nd XV in the leagues, any points deductions they get for not fulfilling a fixture, the 1st XV get the same punishment?
And stand by for points deductions for none compliance with league rules and GMS issues.
Nobody will be forced to enter their lower XV into the league, however the fact is some clubs are not sustainable and will either cease to exist or amalgamate to keep going. That has always happened.
Many clubs have put decades of effort into developing players through mini and juniors, who then see them disappear to play league rugby at a lower level or even worse stop playing completely because Merit Tables have no structure and no penalty for failing to fulfil fixtures.
In the last decade the number of clubs fielding weekly 3XVs in Yorkshire has fallen tragically, we can probably number them on 2 hands.
We are Haemorrhaging players, when a club is down to 1 team they are in a death spiral. If they have a sugar daddy they may survive as long as he does.
Lower XVs in leagues works elsewhere Yorkshire is not that different that it couldn't here.
Alternatively we could carry on doing what we are doing and losing more players each year until we are left with a panoramic view of a lot of Emu's A*ses
So you think we're losing players because second team fixtures are being cancelled. So removing second teams from the second team structure will and reducing the number of games each week will get more players playing?
Like the last caller said adding a second team that must obey first team rules to an already complicated league structure will only make fulfilling fixtures more difficult.
Currently seconds teams mix in and borrow because paperwork is not necessary.
1st team use 2nd team to when they are short. If the first team with second teams have to obey the rules that the rest of the clubs need to they will need a 40+ first team squad and their new second team (effectively a separate first team( will need 25 players at least.
This will never ever ever work. It will simply finish smaller clubs and the bigger clubs will all end up with only one team.
Will registered 1st XV players be allowed to play for 2XV in the league?
Of course they can. To quote from a circular from our esteemed county Chairman.
Quote, "Players who regularly play for a higher level team (what is the definition of regular) cannot play for a lower team unless specific situations apply. Eg They have been covering injuries in the higher team or they are a player returning from a long term injury (4 weeks).
There is no mention of , if a second team needs to win a game to get promotion, why they simply cannot "Drop" seven (for example) first team players and then potentially annihilate their opponents, as happened a couple of weeks ago in the midlands with Syston putting their first team out and winning by about 80 points against all expectations.
The whole thing has not been thought through or discussed to a level where clubs can make an honest vote. IMHO. But I am a simple Dales lad who happens to care about grassroots rugby and does not want to cave in to the bigger clubs who seem determined to sweep up players, get their 2nd XVs into the league system at the obvious expense of smaller struggling clubs.
It really is disappointing that some clubs can be so disrespectful of their lower neighbours who may or may not be struggling to prosper. One thing I can guarantee you all is that if this gets put through it will change the landscape of junior Yorkshire clubs like nothing that has ever happened before.
Quote from: John Noakes Dog on Mar 29, 2026, 11:40 AMWill registered 1st XV players be allowed to play for 2XV in the league?
Surely it would be an utter farce, if for example, a North East 2 side, played 3 / 4 players in their first team one week and then again in their ' second ' team, a week later against say a Yorks 3 side.
Dont tell me that Clubs wouldnt exploit the situation for their own good. A number of clubs are already happy to cancel a difficult ' second ' team fixture, in order to field a ' third team and win by 60 points.
At least half a dozen clubs are struggling today, either from financial issues, fielding only one senior team or a combination of the two. It would only take one or two players to leave for elsewhere, for those clubs to fold permanently. I can see one or two strong senior clubs, taking great pleasure in beating Yorks 3 / 4 sides by 70 + points. Quite rightly, the players of those lower clubs will simply say, thanks but I have other ways of spending my sat afternoons.
Sorry but this is currently happening week in week out in the Merit leagues. If a player isn't playing 1st team they play for the 2nd Team. Thats a fairly standard practice.
I might be more optimistic than some of the traditionalists, and I know there are other factors to consider—like Rugby League, travel distances, and the reality of clubs spending big money.
But, being the rugby enthusiast that I am, I've taken a real interest in the development happening on the south coast. I'm not entirely sure why—maybe it's the noise Bournemouth make on social media—but it's definitely caught my attention.
In particular, I've been following Havant and the wider Hampshire area, and overall it paints a really positive picture for how lower-league rugby can be structured and sustained.
They didn't have it easy at the start and faced some pushback, but over time teams have started to find their level. What stands out is the effort going into player development across all levels at Havant:
• Havant 1st XV – National 2
• Havant 2nd XV – Regional 2
• Havant 3rd XV – Counties 2
Across the wider area:
Counties 4
• 6 first teams, 4 lower teams
• Only 7 walkovers all season (mostly from lower teams giving WO)
Counties 3
• Split 5 & 5
• 7 walkovers again, mainly lower teams conceding
Counties 2
• 7 first teams, 4 second teams
• Just 4 walkovers, though some heavy scorelines (usually against 2nd XVs)
Counties 1
• 9 & 3 split
• 6 walkovers, with some big wins over the second teams
Regional 2
• 11 teams plus Havant 2nd XV
• Havant 2nd XV fulfilled every fixture, despite finishing lower in the table
The main point is this: clubs that are genuinely investing in their communities and building strong player bases need a proper, structured pathway. Merit leagues might work for clubs who only care about 1st XV and their status but they don't always serve the players. I understand the arguments against it, but from the RFU's competitions perspective, it's about organic growth. The clubs that are putting in the work at community level are the ones thriving—and those are the examples that will ultimately shape the future of the game.
& In our case, and it's not something to shout about but because we're not a college or university town we've lost around 65–70% of our more talented players our colts have produced over the past four seasons to opportunities elsewhere leaving less developed players a chance at learning at their own pace but not ready for 1st XV rugby at our level.
If we as a club could move towards something like the Havant model, it would make our club far more attractive and give players a clearer reason to stay long term be part of the Malton & Norton Community way past the average of 12 years an average rugby player engages with the sport.
Looking at us
If we could enter our 2nd XV our 3rds would hopefully elevate into the eastern championship or what every it will morph into and an introduction of a fourths into the EY merit table would be the short term plan.
We wouldn't be looking at "stealing or bribing" players from our neighbours admittedly no one is right on our doorstep. Like the wharfe valley teams I can see how disheartening growing a community only for the 2/3 best players to be cherry picked and bribed by so called bigger clubs over the years we've lost a good handful of players to Hull, Donny, Roth & 1 to Driff. But still here growing.
Nothing should be stopping any clubs taking the bull by the horns and becoming a community like Havant.
I'm sure some of you played in the 60s and 70s, before leagues. In those days, when a club played opponents they had agreed fixtures with, there were very few games that didn't take place.These days games arranged between clubs would be called friendlies, but as anyone who played prior to leagues will confirm the majority of games were far from friendly. Also there were no issues with 2nd teams. I'm sure some will remember Harrogate Georgians and Roundhay Trojans. The clubs I played for had fixtures with Harrogate Georgians and Roundhay Trojans, sometimes winning, sometimes losing, but always competitive.
Were things better before leagues? I would argue they were, but I accept that after 39 years of league structures the current players and officials are not going to abandon them.
Just so you are all aware I had a meeting today with the new Yorkshire Chairman Ian Connell and I was told categorically that despite ALL clubs having been asked to vote on the matter of lower XVs entering the league pyramid, and also having the question asked in the meeting as to the criteria required to get the motion passed, and being told that "it will be a simple majority" following further chat it transpired that the decision has already been made to allow any second teams into the pyramid next season, and your vote simply will mean nothing. This has prompted me to resign my position forthwith from the County Competitions committee as I personally have Zero desire to be involved with anybody who simply lie to their members and simply do not have the common decency to respect the opinions of a majority of its members (if indeed that was to be the outcome). It appears to me that even the people in our great county are now of the same mould as the powers that be at Twickenham. Meaning "We will ask your opinion and then simply do what we decide". I think it is an absolute insult to all Yorkshire member clubs that such an important decision has been decided despite asking ALL clubs to vote on it. Its nothing more than a bloody disgrace.
All you community clubs beware because clubs such as Ionians, Otley (currently only one side), Sheffield, etc etc will be touting your better players for their second teams making any such affected clubs struggle for survival even harder. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
A disgusted Flaggy.
If a team already has a well established 2nd team they won't poach players from other clubs because they already have the players.
If Driffield 2nds join Yorkshire 1 for example they won't need any players from Brid, Hornsea, Bev or whoever because they already have the players.
I can understand if a big club hasn't got a 2nd team and creates one just to join the league but most of the teams already do.
Quote from: Ribbflagman on Mar 30, 2026, 11:53 PMJust so you are all aware I had a meeting today with the new Yorkshire Chairman Ian Connell and I was told categorically that despite ALL clubs having been asked to vote on the matter of lower XVs entering the league pyramid, and also having the question asked in the meeting as to the criteria required to get the motion passed, and being told that "it will be a simple majority" following further chat it transpired that the decision has already been made to allow any second teams into the pyramid next season, and your vote simply will mean nothing. This has prompted me to resign my position forthwith from the County Competitions committee as I personally have Zero desire to be involved with anybody who simply lie to their members and simply do not have the common decency to respect the opinions of a majority of its members (if indeed that was to be the outcome). It appears to me that even the people in our great county are now of the same mould as the powers that be at Twickenham. Meaning "We will ask your opinion and then simply do what we decide". I think it is an absolute insult to all Yorkshire member clubs that such an important decision has been decided despite asking ALL clubs to vote on it. Its nothing more than a bloody disgrace.
All you community clubs beware because clubs such as Ionians, Otley (currently only one side), Sheffield, etc etc will be touting your better players for their second teams making any such affected clubs struggle for survival even harder. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
A disgusted Flaggy.
Does that mean that Skipton, Keighley, Kirkby Lonsdale etc... players are safe from recruitment into the Ribb juggernaut after your back-to-back-to-back promotions? That fresh Yorkshire air up in the Veld is clearly very appealing for one reason or another
Quote from: Grasser17 on Mar 31, 2026, 08:34 AMIf a team already has a well established 2nd team they won't poach players from other clubs because they already have the players.
If Driffield 2nds join Yorkshire 1 for example they won't need any players from Brid, Hornsea, Bev or whoever because they already have the players.
I can understand if a big club hasn't got a 2nd team and creates one just to join the league but most of the teams already do.
Evidence suggests otherwise. And that's based on comments from the club.
Quote from: DrRuck on Mar 31, 2026, 08:59 AMQuote from: Ribbflagman on Mar 30, 2026, 11:53 PMJust so you are all aware I had a meeting today with the new Yorkshire Chairman Ian Connell and I was told categorically that despite ALL clubs having been asked to vote on the matter of lower XVs entering the league pyramid, and also having the question asked in the meeting as to the criteria required to get the motion passed, and being told that "it will be a simple majority" following further chat it transpired that the decision has already been made to allow any second teams into the pyramid next season, and your vote simply will mean nothing. This has prompted me to resign my position forthwith from the County Competitions committee as I personally have Zero desire to be involved with anybody who simply lie to their members and simply do not have the common decency to respect the opinions of a majority of its members (if indeed that was to be the outcome). It appears to me that even the people in our great county are now of the same mould as the powers that be at Twickenham. Meaning "We will ask your opinion and then simply do what we decide". I think it is an absolute insult to all Yorkshire member clubs that such an important decision has been decided despite asking ALL clubs to vote on it. Its nothing more than a bloody disgrace.
All you community clubs beware because clubs such as Ionians, Otley (currently only one side), Sheffield, etc etc will be touting your better players for their second teams making any such affected clubs struggle for survival even harder. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
A disgusted Flaggy.
Does that mean that Skipton, Keighley, Kirkby Lonsdale etc... players are safe from recruitment into the Ribb juggernaut after your back-to-back-to-back promotions? That fresh Yorkshire air up in the Veld is clearly very appealing for one reason or another
Equally as appealing as the fresh sea air in other parts of Yorkshire 😉
Well there's certainly not much appealing about Pock! Even your local school send players East!
I'm happy for a genuine vote to be won or lost on the arguments made. But I cannot accept this BS.
I have views either way on 2nd team entry into leagues but ignoring the views of the majority is inappropriate.
Some people will be removed from their posts as a result of this - just watch.
There's a certain irony in claiming that rugby loses players because of the lack of meaningful competitions, only to restructure the leagues every year without clarity over who needs what to go up or down.
BRB I fear that the treacherous way this has been imposed on the majority of clubs behind the scenes. The only way to head it off at the pass (maybe) would be for a majority of clubs to take a "No Confidence" vote on certain positions. Never in my lifetime have I ever known an organisation to ask its members to vote on something that has already been decided. Its like holding an election in Russia or Afghanistan. Nowhere in the western world can this be seen as acceptable and the people responsible should imo resign forthwith, and hang their heads in shame at their total lack of respect for the majority of the clubs they are supposed to represent.
How we go about the above idea I dont know or know the county constitution but I am sure we can find out. If the county constitution has been breached the vote should be null and void and held again with the results published with clubs agreements so that we have transparency. The way this has been conducted will leave me in doubt as to the outcome of the vote being factual and not tampered with. Strong words I know, but, actions like this are NOT ACCEPTABLE.
Quote from: backrowbandit on Mar 31, 2026, 07:51 PMWell there's certainly not much appealing about Pock! Even your local school send players East!
The chance to appear in Panto with Prince Charming is an opportunity too good to turn down globally it would seem, why would a little market town on the Wolds be any different?
Quote from: Ribbflagman on Apr 01, 2026, 07:04 AMBRB I fear that the treacherous way this has been imposed on the majority of clubs behind the scenes. The only way to head it off at the pass (maybe) would be for a majority of clubs to take a "No Confidence" vote on certain positions. Never in my lifetime have I ever known an organisation to ask its members to vote on something that has already been decided. Its like holding an election in Russia or Afghanistan. Nowhere in the western world can this be seen as acceptable and the people responsible should imo resign forthwith, and hang their heads in shame at their total lack of respect for the majority of the clubs they are supposed to represent.
How we go about the above idea I dont know or know the county constitution but I am sure we can find out. If the county constitution has been breached the vote should be null and void and held again with the results published with clubs agreements so that we have transparency. The way this has been conducted will leave me in doubt as to the outcome of the vote being factual and not tampered with. Strong words I know, but, actions like this are NOT ACCEPTABLE.
Couldn't agree more brother
Regardless of my views on 2nd XVs into the leagues (it obviously favours Driffields current stance)
However it has come as abit of a surprise that it's been done in this way.
Has it not been pointed out that it's come from the RFU rather than YRFU? Or they have at least been pushed in this direction.
Maybe been pushed in this direction by RFU. However the hard facts are that the quality of communication has been almost zero and lies have been told to people. There is simply no getting away from the fact that the whole affair has been handled with the aplomb of a primary school child. Are any of us going to believe a word they tell us in the future. NOT ME.
Just been reading the constitution of the county and under section 9.2 in the handbook it says that (in simple terms) if the Hon Sec receives a motion from NOT LESS THAN 20 MEMBERS then 14 days notice including time place and the motion to all members giving not less than 14 days notice.
There you have it lads.
Any takers???????
Quote from: Differ Lid on Apr 01, 2026, 09:47 AMRegardless of my views on 2nd XVs into the leagues (it obviously favours Driffields current stance)
However it has come as abit of a surprise that it's been done in this way.
Has it not been pointed out that it's come from the RFU rather than YRFU? Or they have at least been pushed in this direction.
Yes..this is more about poor communication and misleading process rather than the substantive issue in hand.
Quote from: PocknRoll on Apr 01, 2026, 07:48 AMQuote from: backrowbandit on Mar 31, 2026, 07:51 PMWell there's certainly not much appealing about Pock! Even your local school send players East!
The chance to appear in Panto with Prince Charming is an opportunity too good to turn down globally it would seem, why would a little market town on the Wolds be any different?
🤣
Well that's a surprise-- not ! All passed
So we move on.
Let's all try and make the most of the outcome. There have been negatives and positives highlighted regarding 2nd teams entering leagues. It's incumbent upon everyone to make sure the positives prevail for the good of all clubs in Yorkshire.
I presume the list of which clubs voted for which option will be made available. In the interests of transparency.
Does it really matter?
Rugby is all about shaking hands after a hard battle and moving on isn't it?
There are few toys being thrown out of the pram at present. However there were club conferences run in all the parts of the CB. The one I attended, these two subjects were the major discussion point. There was opportunity to raise points for and against. If clubs had not been invited to these events I would have agreed the process was flawed. All clubs were invited. We also had a non binding vote where the result was for both 14 team leagues and lower XVs in the leagues. We were told the process would have to go to an official vote. Timescales to get the process complete were tight to get the changes made and leagues sorted in time for new season.
In all the discussions I have attended I have heard no evidence backed data as to why lower XVs in the leagues would damage the game. It won't work in Yorkshire is not data.
I would also point out that I have had senior yorkshire officials get very angry when I have proposed it be a positive step to allow them in
I have one question. Did all clubs consult their players? Then use that mandate for the vote.
I think what is more relevant is that current players should have primacy in the decision to enter or not.
I think in a county as large as Yorkshire there may be some interesting responses...
Why? Question posed to all Yorkshire clubs. 66 answered result clear.
Democracy.
Maybe some people believe in autocracy.
Quote from: bobtheguilder on Apr 03, 2026, 11:30 PMWhy? Question posed to all Yorkshire clubs. 66 answered result clear.
Democracy.
Maybe some people believe in autocracy.
You forget they had a vote last year with 73% + voted against. Same 2 years previous.
Guilder Man,
what you say is factually correct, what you may or may not be aware of is that irrespective of how the "Vote" went on lower teams being admitted into the pyramid. It had already been agreed by chair Ian Connell and supported by Peter Morgan (I personally met them, and that is what they said) and no doubt others on our esteemed county board. To ensure transparency et al, will the voting forms be made available for clubs viewing. I suspect not. Probably yet another Bullshit excuse as to why we cannot see the forms, probably hiding behind some WOAK protection of data and is in direct conflict with all Yorkshire member clubs having a vote on a very sensitive subject.
I only have one simple question.
Will the voting forms be made available for voting clubs to view to ensure transparency or is it a cover up formulated and imposed on us all whist by-passing the correct process. Maybe our county Secretary Dawn Rathmell can enlighten us.
I would be very happy to be proven wrong. But I smell an undemocratic rat at work here of which we should all be aware.
If the voting forms cannot be made available to us all. Or even more truthfully, an admittance that the decision was made before the "Vote" then we are all complicit in standing by and letting "The lunatics run the asylum"
Apologies if this appears a bit strong but it is something I feel strongly about and I make no excuse for telling the truth unlike the people who appear to want to steamroll our clubs into something I believe they dont want. Despite the voting figures communicated. If the voting forms are made available for public viewing and are correct. Fair enough, as BRB said we have no problem with transparent votes by the majority, but this whole affair, I think, leaves a smear on our county administrators.
I wonder why so many clubs didn't vote?
Apathy and a misunderstanding of the very ambiguous question on the "!Voting" slip.
Has there been 3 votes in 3 years? If so why?
I'm not too fussed either way regarding who voted each way....but I do think a list of all clubs who voted (regardless of how) should be published.
This will:
a) show the validity of the vote (i.e. if a club clearly voted and wasn't listed then it needs investigating)
and
b) all those clubs that didn't vote have relinquished their right to moan about whatever the outcome of all this!
BRB You have more chance of that happening than the current Artemis mission landing on Mars!!! That is unless it is all above board. I dont think so, but would be delighted to be proven wrong.
Top to bottom the RFU replicates the public sector and central government. Long term contracts, for useless people that have no idea about what they're controlling.
Greedy fat cats take positions of responsibility for their own rewards. It's broken especially at the very top and sadly that filters down.
RIP rugby below level 7
I've always been against 2nd XVs in leagues, but equally clubs calling off merit games because they are short handed or won't travel does my head in. The county has always been soft on struggling sides; but 'one man's meat is another man's poison' - 'protecting' struggling sides might help them but it damages the clubs whose teams end up going weeks without a game. Perhaps 'survival of the fittest' is the way to go?
Fair points Percy.
Although I'm slightly irritated by the somewhat amateurish way this has been conducted....I think we need to take the heat out of it.
Perhaps the offer of binding a vote in 3 years time to validate or reverse the situation might be fair.
This gives a chance for it to settle down and show that it can work or that the doubters are correct.
I actually think that massive restructuring of the leagues is needed to reflect that the game can only support about 15 professional sides. Therefore national leagues probably are unnecessary....but that's an argument for another day.
In the meantime let's remember, even when rubbish decisions are made, we are all rugby people and want the best for the game (in our own ways)
How will league places be determined next year? Anybody know? How will the strength of 2xv's be determined?
Quote from: John Noakes Dog on Apr 10, 2026, 04:44 PMHow will league places be determined next year? Anybody know? How will the strength of 2xv's be determined?
You questioning the thought process of the Yorkshire RFU? How very dare you.
It will be difficult for clubs to determine whether to enter and at what level to enter without knowing who else is entering. It will take a couple of years to settle down in think.
I'm just concerned that the integrity of the leagues could be compromised with a potential high number of walkovers due to the geographic area.
Also, I've been a massive advocate of 14 team leagues at level 7 upwards. However it could be ironic that they are introduced at level 7 and below just as 2nd teams are introduced. I'm not sure 2nd teams will want that number of league fixtures...but I may be wrong. I would think that 12 team leagues would be better for the lower divisions.
Quote from: backrowbandit on Apr 11, 2026, 07:24 AMIt will be difficult for clubs to determine whether to enter and at what level to enter without knowing who else is entering. It will take a couple of years to settle down in think.
I'm just concerned that the integrity of the leagues could be compromised with a potential high number of walkovers due to the geographic area.
Also, I've been a massive advocate of 14 team leagues at level 7 upwards. However it could be ironic that they are introduced at level 7 and below just as 2nd teams are introduced. I'm not sure 2nd teams will want that number of league fixtures...but I may be wrong. I would think that 12 team leagues would be better for the lower divisions.
Strange how level 3 & 4 will be 14, level 7 and below will be 14.
Only for level 5 & 6 to be 12. Surely the reversal of play offs to a standard two up and two down with 14 across the board would be the way to go.
I can tell you that, after meeting with our esteemed county chairman that the bigger clubs 2nd teams entering the leagues will be based on this years "Yorkshire premiership" merit table. So the top two clubs (currently Sheffield and Ionians) will expand Y1 to 14 and so on. Assuming that all seven clubs currently in that table have voted for their "Lower XVs" to enter the pyramid (God only knows who the other 29 clubs are who allegedly voted for it are) means that Ilkley will be in an expanded Y4 and Wharfedale Foresters and Sandal will be in Y2. I note that yesterday Ionians Buccaneers gave a walkover to Sheff Tigers (Hardly an endorsement of their commitment to the pyramid. With Tigers twice (one against local rivals Sheffield), Ilkley twice. and Wharfedale also having given walkovers this season, I really do wonder where we will be in, say, five years time. Assuming that their is another 29 clubs wanting to enter the system at least a regionalised Y3 and Y4 and maybe Y5 will help reduce travel costs for clubs that may or may not be struggling finacially.
Watch this space.
As an aside I have asked if the voting slips on this subject are available for viewing ( to verify authenticity) but thus far have not received a response. I wonder why?????
And now Driffield can't raise a side...
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1ATjB9zNrH/
Quote from: backrowbandit on Apr 12, 2026, 03:18 PMAnd now Driffield can't raise a side...
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1ATjB9zNrH/
Apologies login issues, now resolved.
Driffield 4th Team being unable to raise a team for a friendly against Beverley on what was a free weekend for them is hardly news with regards to 2s entering the league.
The second team travelled to Sandal on Saturday. Following Saturdays game that 89 players used across the 1st & 2nd Team squads this season. Disappointing that's down from the 92 in the previous season.
That's how it starts Differ...
I wonder if your 2nd XV had to travel to say (Ribb) would they have made the trip at a rough cost of £1000. Be careful what you wish for Mr Burdass!!!!
Wharfedale away, Ilkley away Twice, Alnwick away. Long trips for the 2s isn't anything new.
I can't imagine Ribb will be entering the 2s into the leagues so that can't be a concern
And as predicted, have started their poaching campaign
Who has been poaching already?
Quote from: Differ Lid on Apr 14, 2026, 06:19 AMWho has been poaching already?
A local N2 club currently without a 2nd team but who said they want 2nd teams allowed in the leagues.
The club is at serious risk of ending up in the relegation play offs
Quote from: avinastella on Apr 14, 2026, 10:01 AMQuote from: Differ Lid on Apr 14, 2026, 06:19 AMWho has been poaching already?
A local N2 club currently without a 2nd team but who said they want 2nd teams allowed in the leagues.
The club is at serious risk of ending up in the relegation play offs
Otley, let's spell it out. Given Hulls run of fixtures I think they will be in the playoff.
And so it begins. Don't say you weren't all warned on here first.
I've heard that a Hull club are going to be targeting Pock, Drif and Goole players for their 2nd team entry.
As you say, so it begins.
Driff players have been targeted by Ionians and Otley so far.
Rumour has it money to play 2s might have also been mentioned
Otley need to pull something out of the bag. Throwing money at it seems the only way for them.
Their juniors have abandoned them for Otliensians who themselves have just gone up and doing well. They've picked up the departing Ilkley skipper Joe Loews and look strong for next season.
Money to play 2's - insanity!
Quote from: avinastella on Apr 14, 2026, 10:01 AMQuote from: Differ Lid on Apr 14, 2026, 06:19 AMWho has been poaching already?
A local N2 club currently without a 2nd team but who said they want 2nd teams allowed in the leagues.
The club is at serious risk of ending up in the relegation play offs
Is it poaching or recruiting though?
Surely it's good thing that your players go up the league to play a higher level?
We all know that since covid there isn't near enough players to go around
Quote from: BishBashBosh on Apr 15, 2026, 02:10 PMQuote from: avinastella on Apr 14, 2026, 10:01 AMQuote from: Differ Lid on Apr 14, 2026, 06:19 AMWho has been poaching already?
A local N2 club currently without a 2nd team but who said they want 2nd teams allowed in the leagues.
The club is at serious risk of ending up in the relegation play offs
Is it poaching or recruiting though?
Surely it's good thing that your players go up the league to play a higher level?
We all know that since covid there isn't near enough players to go around
But they are playing for a higher placed clubs 2nd team at a lower level, they are not progressing.
It's pointless and will lead to the loss of some clubs unless it is very carefully monitored.
If a club is changing how it's approaching players based on its 2s playing in Yorkshire 1 or 2 then it's not right, targeting first team squad players in the normal way would be expected.
Would be very hard to monitor though. Can't imagine many players are leaving a club with the view of playing 2nd XV rugby for a Nat 2 side
Quote from: BishBashBosh on Apr 15, 2026, 02:08 PMMoney to play 2's - insanity!
They openly admitted to it on the zoom meeting 18 months ago
Players have always moved clubs, either to challenge themselves at a higher level, because a club has more attractive facilities (gyms, physios better coaching) or Money. The money trail for clubs lasts as long as the 'sugar daddy' is around. The leagues are littered with once mighty clubs where the cash ran out.
Well run clubs that have medium and long-term plans will survive.
Quote from: backrowbandit on Apr 15, 2026, 02:23 PMQuote from: BishBashBosh on Apr 15, 2026, 02:10 PMQuote from: avinastella on Apr 14, 2026, 10:01 AMQuote from: Differ Lid on Apr 14, 2026, 06:19 AMWho has been poaching already?
A local N2 club currently without a 2nd team but who said they want 2nd teams allowed in the leagues.
The club is at serious risk of ending up in the relegation play offs
Is it poaching or recruiting though?
Surely it's good thing that your players go up the league to play a higher level?
We all know that since covid there isn't near enough players to go around
But they are playing for a higher placed clubs 2nd team at a lower level, they are not progressing.
It's pointless and will lead to the loss of some clubs unless it is very carefully monitored.
This is also my point, surely clubs won't be able to tempt players to play twos and effectively play a league or two lower. They'll be recruiting them to play in the first team.
A player who plays first team for Driff is not going to sign to play Otley two's in Yorkshire 1 or 2
The only way they would sign is to play in the first team/be part of the first team squad
You may get some Driff second teamers to Otley, with the promise of playing yorkshire 1 or 2 and that would be a step up from the Merit leagues
A comment from a match last night.
"We want to put our 2s into the leagues but to do so we need to recruit more players. Problem is, there are too many clubs these days. Some should fold allowing players to join clubs such as ours.
An added problem is R1 being allowed 5 replacements next season, so that will add an extra burden on to the second team".
Exactly what was predicted, and the powers that be totally ignoring it.
I see the Heath v Hudds 2xv play off match has been cancelled. Heath have 4 players with Yorkshire U20s, regs stipulate any players who have played 5 or more 1st xv games are ineligible, also injuries so Heath do not have enough players to safely play.
My question is will these regs be applicable under the new Yorkshire league system?
You would like to assume that any 2nd XV that has given a walkover this season wouldn't be allowed to be entered into the leagues.
That would be a logical starting point. Making Wharfedale 2s and now Heath 2 ineligible for the Pyramid.
With regards to the 5 replacements, it's a clubs choice to take 5 or not. As it is now with 3. The only stipulation is having a front row replacement, and club could travel with 16 currently if they choose.
So the extra replacements shouldn't in theory have any effect on the 2nd teams.
Quote from: avinastella on Apr 16, 2026, 09:58 AMA comment from a match last night.
"We want to put our 2s into the leagues but to do so we need to recruit more players. Problem is, there are too many clubs these days. Some should fold allowing players to join clubs such as ours.
An added problem is R1 being allowed 5 replacements next season, so that will add an extra burden on to the second team".
Exactly what was predicted, and the powers that be totally ignoring it.
Would this quote be from someone at Ilkley? Imagine they found 20 players for the AWC last night? Even though they've struggled to get 15 out most weeks without the help of the 3rds
Why are there playoffs in Merit leagues. I can fathom winners of Championship East and West if it led to promotion to Prem.
Playoffs in merit tables though, where you finish calculation seems more convoluted than the Duckworth/Lewis method
That opens a new debate - will some clubs entering their 2nd XV into the league be sacrificing their 3rd XV? There's numerous examples of clubs cancelling 2s but playing 3s and saying its not safe for vets and occasional players to step up out of their level.
Quote from: Retired youngster on Apr 16, 2026, 10:50 AMQuote from: avinastella on Apr 16, 2026, 09:58 AMA comment from a match last night.
"We want to put our 2s into the leagues but to do so we need to recruit more players. Problem is, there are too many clubs these days. Some should fold allowing players to join clubs such as ours.
An added problem is R1 being allowed 5 replacements next season, so that will add an extra burden on to the second team".
Exactly what was predicted, and the powers that be totally ignoring it.
Would this quote be from someone at Ilkley? Imagine they found 20 players for the AWC last night? Even though they've struggled to get 15 out most weeks without the help of the 3rds
You should be a detective Jack.
Quote from: Retired youngster on Apr 16, 2026, 10:50 AMQuote from: avinastella on Apr 16, 2026, 09:58 AMA comment from a match last night.
"We want to put our 2s into the leagues but to do so we need to recruit more players. Problem is, there are too many clubs these days. Some should fold allowing players to join clubs such as ours.
An added problem is R1 being allowed 5 replacements next season, so that will add an extra burden on to the second team".
Exactly what was predicted, and the powers that be totally ignoring it.
Would this quote be from someone at Ilkley? Imagine they found 20 players for the AWC last night? Even though they've struggled to get 15 out most weeks without the help of the 3rds
One club seems to have benefitted better from the player-sharing with Otliensians (who have propped up Ilkley 3s this season) as they couldn't field a side last night
Quote from: DrRuck on Apr 16, 2026, 01:41 PMQuote from: Retired youngster on Apr 16, 2026, 10:50 AMQuote from: avinastella on Apr 16, 2026, 09:58 AMA comment from a match last night.
"We want to put our 2s into the leagues but to do so we need to recruit more players. Problem is, there are too many clubs these days. Some should fold allowing players to join clubs such as ours.
An added problem is R1 being allowed 5 replacements next season, so that will add an extra burden on to the second team".
Exactly what was predicted, and the powers that be totally ignoring it.
Would this quote be from someone at Ilkley? Imagine they found 20 players for the AWC last night? Even though they've struggled to get 15 out most weeks without the help of the 3rds
One club seems to have benefitted better from the player-sharing with Otliensians (who have propped up Ilkley 3s this season) as they couldn't field a side last night
Who couldn't field a side last night?
I make no argument we have been reliant on OO as they have us on occasion. I've not been around much this season due to a family bereavement and it's been infuriating to have watched the commitment fall off a cliff from afar.
You've done well this season and hopefully you keep the squad together assuming you go up as some of your results have been impressive.
Quote from: Differ Lid on Apr 16, 2026, 10:47 AMYou would like to assume that any 2nd XV that has given a walkover this season wouldn't be allowed to be entered into the leagues.
That would be a logical starting point. Making Wharfedale 2s and now Heath 2 ineligible for the Pyramid.
With regards to the 5 replacements, it's a clubs choice to take 5 or not. As it is now with 3. The only stipulation is having a front row replacement, and club could travel with 16 currently if they choose.
So the extra replacements shouldn't in theory have any effect on the 2nd teams.
only time will tell!
Good point Differ Lad, but I know walkovers this season will not be detrimental to entering the pyramid. As the fact that some "one team clubs" will be allowed to enter a second team that is in direct contradiction to the current rules (Otley and Hull spring to my mind). Lets see, we have been promised a communication to all clubs by the end of this month by our esteemed county Chairman. Lets see and then decide if he has lied to us all.
I see the the RFU attempts to force change at the SGM came to nothing. Clubs voted against them.