A warning for all...

[backrowbandit]

Very sad to read about the loss of this club.

https://www.scotlandrugbynews.com/sport/25813908.historic-rugby-union-side-cease-operations-year/?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwdGRjcAPtM6JjbGNrA-0zLmV4dG4DYWVtAjExAHNydGMGYXBwX2lkDDM1MDY4NTUzMTcyOAABHkimX22xOqIIKoSQvScuFXNAyHv6kUFhzk2aP-gqM_mfGhU2lI1W-ASO4gC9_aem_CD97Hn7D6a2-xKf_dD4wTA

[backrowbandit]

This is why we need players to move to clubs that need them and keep them viable rather than entering 2nd teams into leagues...

I wish I was closer to that club, I'd relish the challenge of saving it.

[bobtheguilder]

Completely disagree this would be result of letting 2xvs into league rugby. The clubs that have a good junior and mini offering, generate the players to keep going. The young men and women coming through have in many cases life long affinity to their 'own' club. By not letting 2xvs into leagues they don't move they stop playing. We should encourage good competition, which the merit table system is not providing. Blooding younger players in league games at a lower level than the 1xv prepares them to step up in the future at the club that put the effort in over 10 -12 years and developed them in the first place.

It would also mean many clubs could have meaningful league fixture every week

If we had 2xvs in leagues we could have more localised leagues therefore reducing the travel. It works elsewhere but is Yorkshire so short sighted it can't see how it would work here.

[backrowbandit]

That's a reasonable counter argument. However currently I'm not persuaded but it will be interesting to hear other views.

It's important that a particular clubs position in the context of a snapshot in time isn't used to formulate long term policy. In this area the only club that has had a long term strong 2nd team is Driffield. Others may be strong now but in some cases it's not long ago they were struggling.

[Locked Out]

At Ripon the relative success of its 2nd XV is variable. For example, this season, they are placed second in the merit league, which is less structured but no less demanding than the formal divisional system. Players tend to enjoy the competitive edge of the merit matches and it is good grounding for stepping up to 1st XV duties, as well as helping transition age grade players to adult rugby.

I would argue also, that despite having an incredible well represented age grade section, Ripon is also probably not unique in facing a high attrition rate once age grade players mature. This season for example so far, only one Colt has played 1st XV whereas several have played 2nd XV. Ripon is lucky to get two or three youth players permanently transitioning to adult teams due to the high numbers they have leaving for academia and/or travelling. The benefits of being fed by a high performing grammar school! Whilst age grade rugby is certainly the life blood of a club, it doesn't necessarily lead to a life long affinity, or commitment to play adult rugby, league or merit table.

I am not opposed to 2nd XVs playing in leagues per se, but in order to do so, a club would need significant playing strength and probably need at least three teams' worth of players to make it work. A tall order in itself.

[avinastella]

Take a look at the Southern divisions.
More than a few of them are Merit leagues by any other name. 75-80% second teams in the leagues - and all with the usual quata of walkovers.
A major reason they have lower teams in the league structure is numbers.
Take Cornwall, they only have 17 clubs in total, Devon isn't much different.
At the last count Yorkshire have circa 126 clubs registered.

[Ribbflagman]

Fair points all round, however Walkerburn will be the first of many clubs to fold if second teams are allowed into our league system in Yorkshire. If (for example) Sandal 2s were in the pyramid how could the once proud Rodillians try to keep going as well as the likes of Hemsworth and Knottingley who are not too far away.. There are many other examples in large population centres like Leeds , Sheffield. Hull etc where teams with only one side will struggle to continue and be sustainable in whatever form.
In my opinion for the good of the community game we should wherever possible support grassroots clubs that are struggling rather than deliver, what maybe, a fatal blow merely to strengthen better attended clubs at their expense. In Cumbria long established clubs such as Furness, Netherall OB, Ambleside (although back in the leagues are advertising for players and unable to fill all league fixtures) are struggling. In Yorkshire we have lost Yorkshire Copperworks,several colliery teams like Adwick le street, Leeds CSSA, Leeds Chirons as well as Wakefield and the merger of Roundhay and Headingley to say the least. Does anyone want these clubs that are struggling to survive to disappear completely.
I know its an emotive subject, but for the armada of volunteers who keep many clubs going, I feel (for what its worth and for those hardy souls) they deserve our support.

[bobtheguilder]

Quoting Walkerburns demise is pushing the argument to its limit. Walkerburn is a village of circa 740 population, one school (primary) with 28 pupils 10 miles from Peebles.

The question that needs addressing is, with vast amounts of mini and junior players across the county every Sunday. Why is the number of senior players diminishing yearly. We keep saying they leave and go to uni. Not every school leaver goes to uni. What happens to those that don't?

When they come out of colts some are good enough for 1xv many need further challenge and development.

We offer them games with the social side, load of old boys who may turn out now and then but don't  travel.

Maybe the reason for the tragic loss of young players is that the senior offering is Crap.

Scunthorpe 2xv have played in the Yorkshire Merit structure for years, they got fed up of cry offs and no shows they applied to join NLD league structure and this season are in Counties 2 Midlands N E. They are getting regular fixtures and currently are 4th

It's easy to say it will not work or lead to loss of clubs in Yorkshire but we won't  know if we don't try it.

We will lose clubs without doubt if the offering from clubs does not include mini juniors oo a WORTHWHILE Adult offering.

[backrowbandit]

Bob - to help with context. Which club are you associated with?

This is a useful topic as I think lots of people have mixed views.

I agree with some of your assessment of the issues faced by senior mens rugby but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.

[backrowbandit]

AIs take on it:

No worries at all — easy typo, and it's actually a really good question 👍🏉

Here's a balanced, practical look at the **pros *and* cons** of allowing 2nd XV teams into the league structure under the **Rugby Football Union**.

---

# ✅ **PROS**

## 🏉 1. More Rugby = More Players Retained

Having 2nd teams in leagues means:

* More meaningful fixtures
* Less "friendly-only" rugby
* More reasons for fringe players to stay

This helps clubs keep players who might otherwise drift away.

---

## 📈 2. Better Player Development

League rugby is tougher than friendlies:

* More intensity
* Real pressure
* Proper refereeing
* Structured competition

Young and returning players develop faster in this environment.

---

## 🧩 3. Stronger Club Pathways

A clear ladder:

> Colts → 2nd XV → 1st XV

This makes clubs more sustainable long-term and improves standards overall.

---

## 💪 4. Supports Larger Community Clubs

Big grassroots clubs rely on multiple teams to survive financially.

Leagues for 2nd XVs:

* Justify facility investment
* Help bar revenue
* Keep volunteers engaged

Without this, some clubs would struggle.

---

## 🛡� 5. Prevents Team Drop-Outs

In many regions, independent clubs are folding or struggling for numbers.

Allowing 2nd XVs:

✅ Fills leagues
✅ Stabilises fixtures
✅ Reduces walkovers

Which benefits everyone.

---

## ⚙️ 6. Raises Playing Standards

Second teams often bring:

* Better coaching
* Higher fitness levels
* Stronger tactical awareness

This can lift the overall quality of a division.

---

# ❌ **CONS**

## ⚖️ 1. Competitive Imbalance

Squads can vary wildly:

* One week = true reserves
* Next week = half a 1st XV

That makes leagues feel unfair.

---

## 🔄 2. Player Shuffling

Players moving up/down to suit results can:

* Undermine trust
* Create resentment
* Cause disputes

Even when legal, it damages relationships.

---

## 🚧 3. Promotion & Relegation Issues

Most 2nd XVs can't overtake their 1st XV.

So:

* They block promotion places
* Distort league outcomes

This is one of the biggest frustrations.

---

## 💰 4. Resource Gap

Larger clubs often have:

* Bigger squads
* Better kit/facilities
* Paid coaches

Smaller standalone clubs can feel outgunned.

---

## 📅 5. Fixture Reliability

Because 2nds depend on 1sts:

* Matches get cancelled
* Teams concede late
* Squads change last minute

Which hurts planning and credibility.

---

## 🏘� 6. Weakens Independent Clubs

When 2nd XVs dominate leagues:

* Local "one-team" clubs struggle
* Community identity weakens
* Some clubs stop growing

This affects grassroots rugby long-term.

---

## 📋 7. Admin & Regulation Burden

Leagues need strict rules on:

* Player eligibility
* Appearance limits
* Movement between teams

This increases paperwork and conflict.

---

# ⚖️ Quick Comparison

| Area           | Pros               | Cons                   |
| -------------- | ------------------ | ---------------------- |
| Participation  | More players stay  | Squad instability      |
| Development    | Better pathways    | Youth sidelined        |
| Competition    | Stronger standards | Unfair swings          |
| Sustainability | Fewer drop-outs    | Smaller clubs squeezed |
| Governance     | Clear structure    | More disputes          |

---

# 🏁 Bottom Line

Allowing 2nd XVs works best when:

✅ Leagues are short of teams
✅ Eligibility rules are tight
✅ Promotion is well managed
✅ Clubs act responsibly

It works worst when:

❌ Big clubs dominate
❌ Rules are loose
❌ Pathways are abused

Then resentment builds fast.

---

Given your background in club and community rugby, this is exactly the kind of issue that affects long-term sustainability.

If you'd like, I can also outline **practical rule tweaks** that leagues use to make mixed leagues fairer — some work much better than others.

[bobtheguilder]

I am involved with a South Yorkshire club whose volunteers and members have been involved in mini and junior rugby for over 30 years. In those decades we have developed a lot of players, some of whom have played Premiership and European rugby, but all no matter what level they play at we are really proud.

We have found that the disparity between playing in merit tables against social sides is not good preparation for stepping up to play 1xv rugby at level 6,7 or 8. I am not denigrating social rugby, it has a great place in the game, I know I played it for over 20 years, still miss the sweet tea and bottle of beer in the changing room and banter.

However we have found that we lose players to lower level teams who have not put the hard yards in because they offer league rugby in Y3 & 4.

We know because we have talked to our players, they want the challenge of league rugby, this is true for graduating colts and for guys who are getting on but want to play meaningful competitive games while passing on their knowhow to those just starting on their life in rugby.

I noted a comment that there 126 teams in Yorkshire, I reckon less than 100 play regularly. Unfortunately some clubs will cease to exist, I remember Yorkshire Copper Work, Bridon Ropes, Adwick the list will be big.

The clubs that survive will have to be well run and develop their players and make an attractive offering to retain them. Lower XVs in leagues would be a key part of the offering.

Alternatively  we can stay as we are and watch the annual exodus of young players. I think that is a total waste of all the effort of those volunteers and dedicated coaches.

Change happens ask the Steam engine drivers

[eniDup]

Czesc, planuje wyjazdem i przegladajac oferty natknalem sie na taki kierunek, i tak sie zastanawiam czy to ma sens, bo nie bylem nigdy w tym miejscu – mam na mysli np. oferty na Sri Lanke i co byscie wybrali?