Gerrymandering

[cynic]

So you think we're losing players because second team fixtures are being cancelled. So removing second teams from the second team structure will and reducing the number of games each week will get more players playing?

Like the last caller said adding a second team that must obey first team rules to an already complicated league structure will only make fulfilling fixtures more difficult.

Currently seconds teams mix in and borrow because paperwork is not necessary.

1st team use 2nd team to when they are short. If the first team with second teams have to obey the rules that the rest of the clubs need to they will need a 40+ first team squad and their new second team (effectively a separate first team( will need 25 players at least.

This will never ever ever work. It will simply finish smaller clubs and the bigger clubs will all end up with only one team.

[John Noakes Dog]

Will registered 1st XV players be allowed to play for 2XV in the league?

[Ribbflagman]

Of course they can. To quote from a circular from our esteemed county Chairman.
Quote, "Players who regularly play for a higher level team (what is the definition of regular) cannot play for a lower team unless specific situations apply. Eg They have been covering injuries in the higher team or they are a player returning from a long term injury (4 weeks).
There is no mention of , if a second team needs to win a game to get promotion, why they simply cannot "Drop" seven (for example) first team players and then potentially annihilate their opponents, as happened a couple of weeks ago in the midlands with Syston putting their first team out and winning by about 80 points against all expectations.
The whole thing has not been thought through or discussed to a level where clubs can make an honest vote. IMHO. But I am a simple Dales lad who happens to care about grassroots rugby and does not want to cave in to the bigger clubs who seem determined to sweep up players, get their 2nd XVs into the league system at the obvious expense of smaller struggling clubs.
It really is disappointing that some clubs can be so disrespectful of their lower neighbours who may or may not be struggling to prosper. One thing I can guarantee you all is that if this gets put through it will change the landscape of junior Yorkshire clubs like nothing that has ever happened before.

[Speccy]

Will registered 1st XV players be allowed to play for 2XV in the league?

Surely it would be an utter farce, if for example, a North East 2 side, played 3 / 4 players in their first team one week and then again in their ' second ' team, a week later against say a Yorks 3 side.

Dont tell me that Clubs wouldnt exploit the situation for their own good. A number of clubs are already happy to cancel a difficult ' second ' team fixture, in order to field a ' third team and win by 60 points.

At least half a dozen clubs are struggling today, either from financial issues, fielding only one senior team or a combination of the two. It would only take one or two players to leave for elsewhere, for those clubs to fold permanently. I can see one or two strong senior clubs, taking great pleasure in beating Yorks 3 / 4 sides by 70 + points. Quite rightly, the players of those lower clubs will simply say, thanks but I have other ways of spending my sat afternoons.

[Differ Lid]

Sorry but this is currently happening week in week out in the Merit leagues. If a player isn't playing 1st team they play for the 2nd Team. Thats a fairly standard practice.

[Rob]

I might be more optimistic than some of the traditionalists, and I know there are other factors to consider—like Rugby League, travel distances, and the reality of clubs spending big money.

But, being the rugby enthusiast that I am, I've taken a real interest in the development happening on the south coast. I'm not entirely sure why—maybe it's the noise Bournemouth make on social media—but it's definitely caught my attention.

In particular, I've been following Havant and the wider Hampshire area, and overall it paints a really positive picture for how lower-league rugby can be structured and sustained.

They didn't have it easy at the start and faced some pushback, but over time teams have started to find their level. What stands out is the effort going into player development across all levels at Havant:
    •    Havant 1st XV – National 2
    •    Havant 2nd XV – Regional 2
    •    Havant 3rd XV – Counties 2

Across the wider area:

Counties 4
    •    6 first teams, 4 lower teams
    •    Only 7 walkovers all season (mostly from lower teams giving WO)

Counties 3
    •    Split 5 & 5
    •    7 walkovers again, mainly lower teams conceding

Counties 2
    •    7 first teams, 4 second teams
    •    Just 4 walkovers, though some heavy scorelines (usually against 2nd XVs)

Counties 1
    •    9 & 3 split
    •    6 walkovers, with some big wins over the second teams

Regional 2
    •    11 teams plus Havant 2nd XV
    •    Havant 2nd XV fulfilled every fixture, despite finishing lower in the table

The main point is this: clubs that are genuinely investing in their communities and building strong player bases need a proper, structured pathway. Merit leagues might work for clubs who only care about 1st XV and their status but they don't always serve the players. I understand the arguments against it, but from the RFU's competitions perspective, it's about organic growth. The clubs that are putting in the work at community level are the ones thriving—and those are the examples that will ultimately shape the future of the game.

& In our case, and it's not something to shout about but because we're not a college or university town we've lost around 65–70% of our more talented players our colts have produced over the past four seasons to opportunities elsewhere leaving less developed players a chance at learning at their own pace but not ready for 1st XV rugby at our level.

If we as a club could move towards something like the Havant model, it would make our club far more attractive and give players a clearer reason to stay long term be part of the Malton & Norton Community way past the average of 12 years an average rugby player engages with the sport. 

Looking at us
If we could enter our 2nd XV our 3rds would hopefully elevate into the eastern championship or what every it will morph into and an introduction of a fourths into the EY merit table would be the short term plan.

We wouldn't be looking at "stealing or bribing" players from our neighbours admittedly no one is right on our doorstep. Like the wharfe valley teams I can see how disheartening growing a community only for the 2/3 best players to be cherry picked and bribed by so called bigger clubs over the years we've lost a good handful of players to Hull, Donny, Roth & 1 to Driff. But still here growing.

Nothing should be stopping any clubs taking the bull by the horns and becoming a community like Havant.

[Chiron]

I'm sure some of you played in the 60s and 70s, before leagues. In those days, when a club played opponents they had agreed fixtures with, there were very few games that didn't take place.These days games arranged between clubs would be called friendlies, but as anyone who played prior to leagues will confirm the majority of games were far from friendly. Also there were no issues with 2nd teams. I'm sure some will remember Harrogate Georgians and Roundhay Trojans. The clubs I played for had fixtures with Harrogate Georgians and Roundhay Trojans, sometimes winning, sometimes losing, but always competitive.
Were things better before leagues? I would argue they were, but I accept that after 39 years of league structures the current players and officials are not going to abandon them.

[Ribbflagman]

Just so you are all aware I had a meeting today with the new Yorkshire Chairman Ian Connell and I was told categorically that despite ALL clubs having been asked to vote on the matter of lower XVs entering the league pyramid, and also having the question asked in the meeting as to the criteria required to get the motion passed, and being told that "it will be a simple majority" following further chat it transpired that the decision has already been made to allow any second teams into the pyramid next season, and your vote simply will mean nothing. This has prompted me to resign my position forthwith from the County Competitions committee as I personally have Zero desire to be involved with anybody who simply lie to their members and simply do not have the common decency to respect the opinions of a majority of its members (if indeed that was to be the outcome). It appears to me that even the people in our great county are now of the same mould as the powers that be at Twickenham. Meaning "We will ask your opinion and then simply do what we decide". I think it is an absolute insult to all Yorkshire member clubs that such an important decision has been decided despite asking ALL clubs to vote on it. Its nothing more than a bloody disgrace.
All you community clubs beware because clubs such as Ionians, Otley (currently only one side), Sheffield, etc etc will be touting your better players for their second teams making any such affected clubs struggle for survival even harder. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
A disgusted Flaggy.

[Grasser17]

If a team already has a well established 2nd team they won't poach players from other clubs because they already have the players.
If Driffield 2nds join Yorkshire 1 for example they won't need any players from Brid, Hornsea, Bev or whoever because they already have the players.

I can understand if a big club hasn't got a 2nd team and creates one just to join the league but most of the teams already do.

[DrRuck]

Just so you are all aware I had a meeting today with the new Yorkshire Chairman Ian Connell and I was told categorically that despite ALL clubs having been asked to vote on the matter of lower XVs entering the league pyramid, and also having the question asked in the meeting as to the criteria required to get the motion passed, and being told that "it will be a simple majority" following further chat it transpired that the decision has already been made to allow any second teams into the pyramid next season, and your vote simply will mean nothing. This has prompted me to resign my position forthwith from the County Competitions committee as I personally have Zero desire to be involved with anybody who simply lie to their members and simply do not have the common decency to respect the opinions of a majority of its members (if indeed that was to be the outcome). It appears to me that even the people in our great county are now of the same mould as the powers that be at Twickenham. Meaning "We will ask your opinion and then simply do what we decide". I think it is an absolute insult to all Yorkshire member clubs that such an important decision has been decided despite asking ALL clubs to vote on it. Its nothing more than a bloody disgrace.
All you community clubs beware because clubs such as Ionians, Otley (currently only one side), Sheffield, etc etc will be touting your better players for their second teams making any such affected clubs struggle for survival even harder. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
A disgusted Flaggy.

Does that mean that Skipton, Keighley, Kirkby Lonsdale etc... players are safe from recruitment into the Ribb juggernaut after your back-to-back-to-back promotions? That fresh Yorkshire air up in the Veld is clearly very appealing for one reason or another

[avinastella]

If a team already has a well established 2nd team they won't poach players from other clubs because they already have the players.
If Driffield 2nds join Yorkshire 1 for example they won't need any players from Brid, Hornsea, Bev or whoever because they already have the players.

I can understand if a big club hasn't got a 2nd team and creates one just to join the league but most of the teams already do.

Evidence suggests otherwise. And that's based on comments from the club.

[PocknRoll]

Just so you are all aware I had a meeting today with the new Yorkshire Chairman Ian Connell and I was told categorically that despite ALL clubs having been asked to vote on the matter of lower XVs entering the league pyramid, and also having the question asked in the meeting as to the criteria required to get the motion passed, and being told that "it will be a simple majority" following further chat it transpired that the decision has already been made to allow any second teams into the pyramid next season, and your vote simply will mean nothing. This has prompted me to resign my position forthwith from the County Competitions committee as I personally have Zero desire to be involved with anybody who simply lie to their members and simply do not have the common decency to respect the opinions of a majority of its members (if indeed that was to be the outcome). It appears to me that even the people in our great county are now of the same mould as the powers that be at Twickenham. Meaning "We will ask your opinion and then simply do what we decide". I think it is an absolute insult to all Yorkshire member clubs that such an important decision has been decided despite asking ALL clubs to vote on it. Its nothing more than a bloody disgrace.
All you community clubs beware because clubs such as Ionians, Otley (currently only one side), Sheffield, etc etc will be touting your better players for their second teams making any such affected clubs struggle for survival even harder. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
A disgusted Flaggy.

Does that mean that Skipton, Keighley, Kirkby Lonsdale etc... players are safe from recruitment into the Ribb juggernaut after your back-to-back-to-back promotions? That fresh Yorkshire air up in the Veld is clearly very appealing for one reason or another

Equally as appealing as the fresh sea air in other parts of Yorkshire 😉

[backrowbandit]

Well there's certainly not much appealing about Pock! Even your local school send players East!

[backrowbandit]

I'm happy for a genuine vote to be won or lost on the arguments made. But I cannot accept this BS.

I have views either way on 2nd team entry into leagues but ignoring the views of the majority is inappropriate.

Some people will be removed from their posts as a result of this - just watch.

[Hot Stepper]

There's a certain irony in claiming that rugby loses players because of the lack of meaningful competitions, only to restructure the leagues every year without clarity over who needs what to go up or down.