2nd teams into leagues

[backrowbandit]

Out of interest this is what ChatGPT says....quite interesting

Short answer: **generally yes — but only when the regulations around player movement are tight.** Where they're loose, you tend to get integrity concerns ("stacking" a 2nd XV for big games, then weakening them the next week), and that can lead to uneven competition and occasional walkovers.

A few points that may help frame what Yorkshire is stepping into:

## 1) This is not a new experiment

Reserve / lower XVs already play in structured leagues in several RFU regions (Midlands, London & South East, South West etc.), typically **at Counties 1 / Counties 2 level and below**.

The Rugby Football Union has now formally created criteria for **Lower XV league entry**, and has reinforced that **only 1st XVs can play at Regional 2 and above** — so reserve sides are effectively capped beneath that level. ([England Rugby][1])

That's quite important because it:

* protects the competitive pathway for genuine 1st XV clubs;
* allows ambitious 2nd XVs meaningful rugby;
* avoids "A team reserves" ending up effectively in the national pyramid.

That suggests RFU sees lower XV inclusion as a **feature**, not a temporary fix.

---

## 2) Has it been successful?

### Mostly yes — for 3 reasons:

### a) Better fixture fulfilment than merit tables / friendlies

Good club 2nd XVs are often:

* better organised,
* have larger player pools,
* stronger admin support,
* better access to pitches / refs.

That often means **they are actually more reliable fulfilers of fixtures** than isolated small 1st XV community clubs.

---

### b) Stronger playing standard

A club 2nd XV can be:

* ex-1st XV players,
* Colts graduates,
* returning injured senior players,
* squad fringe players.

That usually raises league standard.

---

### c) Better player retention

Instead of:

> 1st XV rugby or nothing

clubs can offer:

> 1st XV / 2nd XV / development pathway

That keeps players in rugby.

---

## 3) Walkovers — where problems happen

I can't find national RFU data showing reserve-team leagues have unusually high walkover rates. The bigger issue reported regionally is **competitive distortion**, not fulfilment. ([England Rugby][2])

Walkovers tend to happen when:

### Big clubs over-commit

Example:

* 1st XV squad = 28
* 2nd XV squad = 30
* 3rd XV launched with optimism...

Then injuries hit in November:

* 1st XV fulfilled
* 2nd XV scraped together
* 3rd XV concedes

That's common.

---

### Selection yo-yo

If regulations are weak:

* 1st XV lads drop down Saturday
* dominate 2nd XV fixture
* disappear next week

Opponents lose heart and leagues become unstable.

---

## 4) What rules do other areas use?

This is the crucial bit.

Most regions apply **selection on merit + anti-parachuting rules**.

### A) 1st XV must be strongest side

This is a core RFU principle:

> clubs with multiple league sides must select 1st XV, 2nd XV etc on merit order. ([RFU London][3])

Meaning:
You can't deliberately weaken your 1st XV to strengthen your 2nd XV.

---

### B) "Played last week in 1st XV = unavailable for 2nd XV"

Midlands has a version of this:

A player who played in the **previous 1st XV league match** generally **cannot drop into the 2nd XV** after the transfer deadline, except for:

* injury cover circumstances,
* front-row necessity,
* return from long injury layoff. ([RFU Midlands][4])

That's a very effective safeguard.

---

### C) Registration / nomination lists

Some comps require:

* nominated 1st XV squad list,
* nominated lower XV squad list,
* movement windows.

Example:
a block of ~20–25 "1st XV players" cannot freely drop down.

---

### D) Limited "step-downs"

Typical rule:
Player may only move down **one team level** without approval.

So:
1st → 2nd = OK
1st → 3rd = restricted

Stops ringers appearing.

---

### E) Cup restrictions

League movement may be flexible, but:

* cup competitions often tighten eligibility,
* player must have played X matches for that team.

---

## 5) The real concern for Yorkshire clubs

Smaller independent 1st XV clubs will worry about playing:

* Scarborough 2nd XV
* Wharfedale 2nd XV
* Hull Ionians 2nd XV
* etc.

Because those sides may have:

* bigger squads,
* S&C support,
* Colts pipeline,
* occasional former 1st XV players.

That concern is valid.

The answer is **not banning 2nds** — it's **good regulation**.

The best model is:

✅ Lower XVs capped below Regional 2
✅ 1st XV strongest-on-merit rule
✅ previous-week 1st XV players ineligible for 2nd XV
✅ exceptions only for front row / injury return
✅ squad registration windows
✅ heavy sanctions for manipulation

That setup has generally worked elsewhere.

---

My instinct: **this will be good for Yorkshire rugby if governed tightly, bad if governed loosely.**

If you want, I can look specifically at **Yorkshire RFU's proposed regulations** and compare them against Midlands / London / South West models.

[1]: https://www.englandrugby.com/run/rules-governance/rfu-rules-and-regulations/regulation-6-adult-competitions/regulation-6-appendix-2-mens-competition-structure?utm_source=chatgpt.com "RFU Regulation 6 – Appendix 2"
[2]: https://www.englandrugby.com/run/rules-governance/rfu-rules-and-regulations?utm_source=chatgpt.com "RFU Rules & Regulations"
[3]: https://www.rfulondon.com/forms/admin2025.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com "ADMINISTRATIVE INSTRUCTIONS 2025-2026"
[4]: https://www.rfumidlands.com/rfu-game-regulations-mrai?utm_source=chatgpt.com "RFU Game Regulations & MRAI - rfumidlands.com"

[old style prop]

My pennies worth - One of the main issues i can see comming up will be the regulation of movement of players from 1s too 2s. Personally i do not think there is a silver bullet regulation arround this, that will not have potential problems under certain circumstances.

Therefore I just hope the regulation arround this is clear and well communicated ahead of the start of the season. Best i can think of myself whilst keeping it fairly basic is along the lines of the below:
You cant play league games for the 2s if you have played more than 6 games for the 1s, with the following exceptions:
If the player has played more games for the 2s than the 1s that season.
If the player has not played for more than 4 weeks, excluding any weeks lost to being banned from playing.
If the player is a front row and the game would be uncontested without them (dubious about this one as very open to being exploited)

[backrowbandit]

Minefield

[Differ Lid]

My pennies worth - One of the main issues i can see comming up will be the regulation of movement of players from 1s too 2s. Personally i do not think there is a silver bullet regulation arround this, that will not have potential problems under certain circumstances.

Therefore I just hope the regulation arround this is clear and well communicated ahead of the start of the season. Best i can think of myself whilst keeping it fairly basic is along the lines of the below:
You cant play league games for the 2s if you have played more than 6 games for the 1s, with the following exceptions:
If the player has played more games for the 2s than the 1s that season.
If the player has not played for more than 4 weeks, excluding any weeks lost to being banned from playing.
If the player is a front row and the game would be uncontested without them (dubious about this one as very open to being exploited)

A couple of preseason injuries sidelines your 1st team hooker. So the 2nd choice hooker plays the 1st 7 games of the season, now they aren't able to play 2nd Team for the remainder of the season.

I can't see how anything like that can work properly

[old style prop]

Agree its a complete minefield and differ lad in that example with above criteria it would be 4 weeks not reminder of season - as said i cant see a silver bullet that does not have problems in some circumstances. Also fail to see any regulation that would prevent a club whose 1s are secure in mid table, dropping some players into a 2s side chasing promotion or trying to avoid relergation.

I dont see it being a problem at the start of the season, providing league weekends match up. It will be those last few games in March and April were you will see the problems.

Will be interesting to see what, if any, regulations the powers that be come up with to prevent clubs gaming the system. We should be hearing more this week hopefully, now all the play offs are done and dusted.

[Ribbflagman]

I can tell you that following a personal meeting with our county Chairman that he assured me it would all be managed through GMS and clubs that didnt "do the right thing" would be suitably penalised. A certain poster on here from Rishworthians was also at said meeting so nobody can accuse me of making mischief.
Personally i think its all a bit of bluster. I was also assured that the decision regarding second teams into the leagues would be distributed by the end of April. Here we are in the middle of May and none the wiser. County Chairman is very much like Keir Starmer, dictating to its members but actually delivering nothing. Sounds very much like a certain political party that has IMHO delivered F+++ all and doesnt really care about our county clubs. I may be wrong and would be delighted to be proven so. However I suspect I am not wrong.
We need change within our county administrators ,and get people involved who actually care about our game.

[Rob]

They Might be holding off in whether to bump level 5 and 6 up to 14 teams.

Needs to be done.