Yorkshire Rugby

Flaggy,

I'm somewhat of a newbie to rugby at this level as I've only been going to watch Pock for a couple of seasons, is the league format the same every year, as in the 2nd teams get priority over 1sts? Seems unfair to me, as Stella pointed out, that 4/5 teams stand to miss out to 2nd teams with lower a lower win %.

Quote from: PocknRoll on Mar 14, 2025, 08:02 AMFlaggy,

I'm somewhat of a newbie to rugby at this level as I've only been going to watch Pock for a couple of seasons, is the league format the same every year, as in the 2nd teams get priority over 1sts? Seems unfair to me, as Stella pointed out, that 4/5 teams stand to miss out to 2nd teams with lower a lower win %.

The 2nd XV priority wasn't a thing last year, hence why Wetherby went up as 6th best 2nd place team.

Quote from: Flaggy on Mar 13, 2025, 08:26 PMDiffer Boy,
            you may not be a mathematician but even Stevie Wonder would be able to see (maybe not) that five teams being promoted before Pock with inferior winning percentages is more than a "Travesty". That is unless you are from the senior club brigade that want to have it all to yourselves and forget about Grassroots clubs who have been the bedrock of our game for about 100 years. I think I already know the answer to that one!!!

Ok Flaggy, a couple of issues being rolled into one argument here, so let break them down.

Pocklington currently sit in 2nd place. This has never been an automatic promotion place, so although promotion should be based on the best 2nd place finishers, that's not the way it has been set out this season and Pock are missing out. Not a Travesty, it's the way it is. 

Now I can agree it is ridiculous that this is the way it has been set out for promotion. The fact that of the 6 top 2nd place sides, only 3 of them will be promoted, whilst 3 other sides are sent up due to loophole seems daft. But this is the RFU we are talking about, and it can't come as a surprise that people disagree with a poorly thought-out plan.


Ok the real point of your argument, 2nd Teams ripping the heart out of Yorkshire Rugby...

Putting the "Senior Club" brigade aside, the current Merit Leagues aren't fit for purpose for genuine established 2nd XVs who are looking to play regular competitive league rugby. We aren't talking about social sides, as these clearly aren't going to rip the heart and soul out of North Ribblesdale 2s.

Across the Yorkshire Merit leagues we have had 158 Walkovers this season, I can agree the bedrock of our game are the grassroot rugby clubs, the bedrock of those clubs has to be built on playing numbers, playing numbers can't grow when teams aren't playing regular rugby.

The higher your 1st XV go up the pyramid the difference is the quality of squad depth. The "senior clubs" ensure good squad depth by offering money to keep players in the squad, this isn't going to change no matter the level of the 2nd XV. However, for Grassroots Clubs to maintain this depth they need a competitive 2nd XV who are playing regular rugby, so when players are called into the 1st XV the jump isn't as big.

Many on here are worried about these "senior clubs" hoovering up all the playing talent in the region to bolster a 2nd XV playing in Yorkshire 1. However if something doesn't change soon then many of these Grassroots clubs won't have opposition for 2nd XVs to play against anyway, and you're playing pool will naturally disappear on its own, and the competitiveness at any level of the club will disappear (just look at Bridlington, 2nd XV fold and the 1st XV have suffered massively, however a few miles down the road, Beverley who have recently reestablished a competitive 2nd XV have seen the 1st XV thriving this season)

So, if we aren't going to allow established 2nd XVs who have to meet a list of criteria enter the league system, what is the answer for these clubs to remain competitive? Because 2nd XV rugby is dying at the moment in Yorkshire, whilst it seems to be thriving in other regions (just look at the number of 2nd XVs who are about to be promoted to Regional 2).

BRB short sightedness goes for everyone in the sport I'm afraid. Driffield want a platform that closes the gap between 1st XV and 2nd XV without paying players. So, its blindly obvious to me how to fix that. North Ribb don't want to lose players to Wharfedale 2s so its blindingly obvious to Flaggy how to prevent that. Both short sighted views, but I manage to have my view without scaremongering about the "potential" demise of Grassroots rugby it will cause, or that my view is more honourable because I can point a finger at "senior clubs" stealing the crown jewels (which they will continue to do anyway).

Quote from: gateprop on Mar 14, 2025, 10:09 AM

Quote from: PocknRoll on Mar 14, 2025, 08:02 AMFlaggy,

I'm somewhat of a newbie to rugby at this level as I've only been going to watch Pock for a couple of seasons, is the league format the same every year, as in the 2nd teams get priority over 1sts? Seems unfair to me, as Stella pointed out, that 4/5 teams stand to miss out to 2nd teams with lower a lower win %.

The 2nd XV priority wasn't a thing last year, hence why Wetherby went up as 6th best 2nd place team.

Thanks GP

Quote from: Differ Lid on Mar 14, 2025, 11:34 AM

Quote from: Flaggy on Mar 13, 2025, 08:26 PMDiffer Boy,
            you may not be a mathematician but even Stevie Wonder would be able to see (maybe not) that five teams being promoted before Pock with inferior winning percentages is more than a "Travesty". That is unless you are from the senior club brigade that want to have it all to yourselves and forget about Grassroots clubs who have been the bedrock of our game for about 100 years. I think I already know the answer to that one!!!

Ok Flaggy, a couple of issues being rolled into one argument here, so let break them down.

Pocklington currently sit in 2nd place. This has never been an automatic promotion place, so although promotion should be based on the best 2nd place finishers, that's not the way it has been set out this season and Pock are missing out. Not a Travesty, it's the way it is. 

Now I can agree it is ridiculous that this is the way it has been set out for promotion. The fact that of the 6 top 2nd place sides, only 3 of them will be promoted, whilst 3 other sides are sent up due to loophole seems daft. But this is the RFU we are talking about, and it can't come as a surprise that people disagree with a poorly thought-out plan.


Ok the real point of your argument, 2nd Teams ripping the heart out of Yorkshire Rugby...

Putting the "Senior Club" brigade aside, the current Merit Leagues aren't fit for purpose for genuine established 2nd XVs who are looking to play regular competitive league rugby. We aren't talking about social sides, as these clearly aren't going to rip the heart and soul out of North Ribblesdale 2s.

Across the Yorkshire Merit leagues we have had 158 Walkovers this season, I can agree the bedrock of our game are the grassroot rugby clubs, the bedrock of those clubs has to be built on playing numbers, playing numbers can't grow when teams aren't playing regular rugby.

The higher your 1st XV go up the pyramid the difference is the quality of squad depth. The "senior clubs" ensure good squad depth by offering money to keep players in the squad, this isn't going to change no matter the level of the 2nd XV. However, for Grassroots Clubs to maintain this depth they need a competitive 2nd XV who are playing regular rugby, so when players are called into the 1st XV the jump isn't as big.

Many on here are worried about these "senior clubs" hoovering up all the playing talent in the region to bolster a 2nd XV playing in Yorkshire 1. However if something doesn't change soon then many of these Grassroots clubs won't have opposition for 2nd XVs to play against anyway, and you're playing pool will naturally disappear on its own, and the competitiveness at any level of the club will disappear (just look at Bridlington, 2nd XV fold and the 1st XV have suffered massively, however a few miles down the road, Beverley who have recently reestablished a competitive 2nd XV have seen the 1st XV thriving this season)

So, if we aren't going to allow established 2nd XVs who have to meet a list of criteria enter the league system, what is the answer for these clubs to remain competitive? Because 2nd XV rugby is dying at the moment in Yorkshire, whilst it seems to be thriving in other regions (just look at the number of 2nd XVs who are about to be promoted to Regional 2).

BRB short sightedness goes for everyone in the sport I'm afraid. Driffield want a platform that closes the gap between 1st XV and 2nd XV without paying players. So, its blindly obvious to me how to fix that. North Ribb don't want to lose players to Wharfedale 2s so its blindingly obvious to Flaggy how to prevent that. Both short sighted views, but I manage to have my view without scaremongering about the "potential" demise of Grassroots rugby it will cause, or that my view is more honourable because I can point a finger at "senior clubs" stealing the crown jewels (which they will continue to do anyway).

Speaking of Brid, i understand your club is, how shall we say, familiar with many of their players/2nd teamers.

Stella,
        you took that very words from my mouth. That is exactly the point/example I was trying to make (maybe poorly). Dont think Differ Boy will be happy explaining that one.!!!

Quote from: Flaggy on Mar 14, 2025, 12:25 PMStella,
        you took that very words from my mouth. That is exactly the point/example I was trying to make (maybe poorly). Dont think Differ Boy will be happy explaining that one.!!!

Oh lovely, I will happily pick this one up for you. "Big Bad Driffield destroying local rugby clubs"

Time for some facts.

Bridlington struggled for playing numbers and to fulfill 2nd XV fixtures for a variety of reasons, the internal politics of a rugby club can create many issues. Driffield tried to help by sending players to play for Brid 2s and support a local side however we could. Unfortunately,  they continued to struggle and they had to pull out of the Merit League.

This has left a number of local rugby players without a side to play for, but they still wish to play rugby. So a number of players registered to Bridlington have played for our 3s and 4s. (Some have also been turning out for Scarborough, but I imagine BRB avoided the wagging fingers as he supports keeping 2nd teams out of the leagues)

In an attempt to prevent the complete collapse of a local 2nd XV, Driffield and Bridlington have organised a friendly fixture which will take place tomorrow actually at Dukes Park. A game that if needed Driffield would lend players and the game would be able to go ahead. However as it turns out Bridlington have got a decent size squad and Driffield will be sending good numbers, as 2 local grassroots clubs come together and continue to try and grow local rugby.

Really unhappy to explain that one

Differ

I was over in the Driffield/Brid area this week and was told about the friendly 2nd XV fixture and know its been well received by Brid members.

Its going to be tough for Brid next season after back to back relegations. They also lose there three local East Yorkshire fixtures and will have plenty of long distance away games.

I for one hope they sort themselves out and stabilise the club.

Quote from: Differ Lid on Mar 14, 2025, 12:54 PM

Quote from: Flaggy on Mar 14, 2025, 12:25 PMStella,
        you took that very words from my mouth. That is exactly the point/example I was trying to make (maybe poorly). Dont think Differ Boy will be happy explaining that one.!!!

Oh lovely, I will happily pick this one up for you. "Big Bad Driffield destroying local rugby clubs"

Time for some facts.

Bridlington struggled for playing numbers and to fulfill 2nd XV fixtures for a variety of reasons, the internal politics of a rugby club can create many issues. Driffield tried to help by sending players to play for Brid 2s and support a local side however we could. Unfortunately,  they continued to struggle and they had to pull out of the Merit League.

This has left a number of local rugby players without a side to play for, but they still wish to play rugby. So a number of players registered to Bridlington have played for our 3s and 4s. (Some have also been turning out for Scarborough, but I imagine BRB avoided the wagging fingers as he supports keeping 2nd teams out of the leagues)

In an attempt to prevent the complete collapse of a local 2nd XV, Driffield and Bridlington have organised a friendly fixture which will take place tomorrow actually at Dukes Park. A game that if needed Driffield would lend players and the game would be able to go ahead. However as it turns out Bridlington have got a decent size squad and Driffield will be sending good numbers, as 2 local grassroots clubs come together and continue to try and grow local rugby.

Really unhappy to explain that one

Don't drag me into the Brid/Driffield issue. I want all rugby clubs to succeed and have enough players...full stop.

Also rather than me "supporting keeping 2nd teams out of league" I would rather characterise it as "supporting all rugby clubs to survive and prosper ".

Having said all that, if 2nd teams were admitted I wouldn't be stamping my feet either...

I wonder if Brid could have had a large squad had it not been a "Rest weekend" Your point well put Differ Boy but I suspect that had it been a league weekend the fixture may have looked quite different.